Evidence of meeting #30 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hon. Kim Campbell  Chairperson, Independent Advisory Board for Supreme Court of Canada Judicial Appointments

4:50 p.m.

Chairperson, Independent Advisory Board for Supreme Court of Canada Judicial Appointments

Kim Campbell

We looked for all of the above. You know, it's interesting. Judges who serve in very small communities often find that when they go to the bench, they are advised not to be too involved in the community organizations, as many of them were before they were elevated to the bench, because it creates the possibility of conflict of interest in small communities. You see the judges move back and forth because they have a lot of conflicts. It's very situational.

What we found with the candidates with whom we felt most confident was that there was an interest in the world outside their own role as judges, that they cared about the community, that they cared about issues that might be on an international level often before they went to the bench. Many of them were people—Justice Rowe is one of them—who came from quite modest backgrounds, often very poor backgrounds, but who just had that wonderful remarkable intelligence and resilience making them great Canadian success stories. It was wonderful to see their humanity.

We looked for that kind of humanity in people, because it's not an abstract exercise. Real people are affected. We very much looked for evidence of that. It came in many different ways, depending on the nature of where they lived and what they were able to do.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

You mentioned that the process went well. Perhaps I'll ask a bit more of a specific question. Would you recommend any changes to the questionnaire?

4:50 p.m.

Chairperson, Independent Advisory Board for Supreme Court of Canada Judicial Appointments

Kim Campbell

I'd have to go back and look at it. I know that, from the point of view of the applicants, shorter would be better. It was quite daunting. I'd have to go back and look at it again and say, “We didn't need this, or we didn't need that, or that may have been a duplication.”

On the other hand, in terms of transparency, the fact that you can all read the application of the successful candidate means that you have this clear sense, as we did when we first met him in the process, of what kind of person he is. You might ask yourself, if you were reviewing this and were given this application, what you would think of this person. The nice thing about it is that it's the person telling you about his or her life in the law. Then there's more that we find from other people as well.

I think we might be able to make it more succinct. We might be able to reduce the misery of putting in every case that you were involved in, etc., although nowadays with electronic.... However for trial court judges and some jurisdictions everything isn't published, so it's not so easy.

Anyway, I think that is certainly something that one could look at from a humanitarian perspective. But it's certainly a wonderful document. I don't think we've ever had such a document about anyone who has gone to the Supreme Court of Canada. We know lots about them, but to have in one place the story of their life in the law is really I think...and their childhood and their upbringing, it's all in there.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you, Ms. Campbell and Minister Wilson-Raybould, for your testimony here at committee.

You outlined the process a little bit, Ms. Campbell, about receiving the applications, 31 of them, distributing them to the seven committee members for evaluation, and then submitting the results. I'm assuming they ranked the results. I'd be curious to know a little bit about the criteria that you were weighing. Was it qualifications? Was it characteristics? Was it achievements? Was it competencies? Tell me a little bit more about the things you were looking for and how you weighted those things.

4:55 p.m.

Chairperson, Independent Advisory Board for Supreme Court of Canada Judicial Appointments

Kim Campbell

Actually, we didn't rank them. In the first go-round we just said, “yes”, “no”, “maybe”. That was the first thing. In other words, we said yes, to go to the next stage, and no, if we thought, for whatever reason, this candidate.... It was usually, perhaps, because the person had not had a lot of experience compared to the others, didn't have that kind of ability, and then maybe it was, “Oh, this is a tough one”, and that's where we had the very interesting conversations.

The assessment criteria are actually in the terms of reference, and I think were very much what we looked at: personal skills and experience, so superior knowledge of the law—we looked for knowledge of the law and legal judgment; analytical skills and the ability to resolve complex legal questions; the ability to work under time pressures, clearly; a commitment to public service. It's in the terms of reference.

Then there were personal qualities. An irreproachable personal and professional integrity. This we explored quite forcefully with the different references to whom we spoke about the people: “What can you tell us about this person? In your view, is there anything that would come back to haunt, etc.?” We looked for respect and consideration for others; I think that's important. We questioned on an ability to appreciate a diversity of views, perspectives, and life experiences, including those relating to groups historically disadvantaged in Canadian society. Again, it was very interesting to see how those answers unfolded, often through personal experience, often through their lifetime experience. That was important to us. What is that texture? How has Canadian life, in all of its diversity, impacted on this individual in his or her understanding? We also looked at moral courage, discretion, open-mindedness. Those were the personal qualities we looked at.

Then there were the institutional needs of the court: ensuring a reasonable balance between public and private law expertise, bearing in mind the historic patterns of distribution between these areas in the Supreme Court; expertise in any specific subject matter that regularly features in appeals and is currently under-represented on the court; and ensuring that the members of the Supreme Court are reasonably reflective of the diversity of Canadian society.

One of the things that interested me very much about Justice Rowe was his experience in government, both as head of the civil service in Newfoundland and then his work as a foreign service officer. There will be, probably, interesting cases with respect to jurisdictional disputes, etc., the balancing of federal-provincial relations in all sorts of areas of policy and with indigenous issues, environmental policy, etc. I thought that experience, plus his broad experience in the country, positioned him well to be a constructive participant in the law in that area.

At the very beginning we joked and said, well, if we could deconstruct all these people and take part of this and part of this, but that's not how it works. People are full-fledged human beings and you have to see them in their entirety. It's actually very reassuring. I think you would enjoy it very much to appreciate how a person can be wonderful in many different ways and can bring a kind of humanity and wisdom from many different sources. At the end of the day, that person, if he or she goes to the Supreme Court of Canada, has to be a legal thinker, has to be a jurist, has to be able to write, has to be able to collaborate effectively with other judges on the court. The wonderfulness that would make somebody effective on the court can take many different forms, and that was why, for us, it's not like you're comparing apples and oranges, it's like you're comparing many different wonderful types of apple. I love McIntosh and I like to cook with the Bramley. In other words, they were all quite splendid, but how they got there was unique to each one of them. It was a great privilege and hard work to look at these people and say, what can we give to the Prime Minister that will give him some choice, but no matter which candidate he chooses, he can't go wrong, that person will be an adornment to the court?

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Mr. Falk has some other questions.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

I should have made myself more clear: the weighting, what you put priority on, which qualifications or characteristics. Maybe you can answer it on somebody else's time.

I'd like to ask the minister a question. Minister, you provided the Prime Minister with a short list of five. My question is, did you rank those individuals and did he go with your ranking?

My second question is, would you commit to a hybrid process for this next year where members of Parliament, especially members of this committee, would be more engaged?

5 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

The short list certainly was provided to the Prime Minister. I was provided that list from the Prime Minister and undertook to do extensive consultations, reviewed the jurisprudence of every single individual who was on that list, which in the case of Justice Rowe was quite large. I did not rank candidates for the Prime Minister. I was pleased to have gone through the thorough consultation, to have reviewed all the jurisprudence and other professional and academic writings. I was happy to fulfill my role as the Minister of Justice and be able to provide a recommendation to the Prime Minister.

In terms of your question about a hybrid process, as I said earlier, I'm very open to hearing feedback from members of this committee. Once that feedback and the feedback of the advisory board is provided, I will take it into consideration.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Rankin.

5 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

To build on that, I'm glad that you're open to refinement in the process. I would encourage you to provide a more robust role for MPs, as I've said earlier. Specifically, the hybrid idea that Mr. Falk suggested I think makes a lot of sense.

The process tomorrow is a process that has no legal standing. It's by invitation only and it's not a committee of Parliament. I would really urge that this committee of Parliament be offered the opportunity to add to the independent and non-partisan role that Ms. Campbell's committee played, so we could discharge our responsibility. I'm glad that I think I heard you say that you may be open to that. I wouldn't mind clarification of a role for this committee, perhaps earlier in the process, so we could do our job.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I appreciate the question.

I appreciate much more the engagement of the committee. I said that I am open to feedback from the committee on any part of this process and how it can be improved. I suspect I will be getting some recommendations in that regard with respect to the role for the MPs.

I wanted to underscore my comments earlier about the process that the Prime Minister has introduced. I feel that it provides a substantive ability for members of Parliament, not only members in the House of Commons, but members of the Senate as well, to be engaged, as evidenced by tomorrow's meeting, where they will be able to ask questions of Justice Rowe.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Basically, if you ladies would agree, we do these short snappers, which are where a member of the committee gets a very short question, and you have a short answer. We only have a couple of minutes left.

Mr. Nicholson has had his hand up to ask a question for quite a while.

Go ahead, Mr. Nicholson.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you very much.

On that question on our involvement tomorrow, as Mr. Cooper pointed out, you have 22 members of Parliament there. We the Conservatives had been told that the three of us will get two questions. How excited or engaged do you think we are, if we have a 66% chance of asking one question tomorrow? It was suggested that it would be a one-minute question to give the judge three minutes to respond.

How significant do you think that involvement is? Wouldn't it be a better idea to have the justice appear before this committee here and have a committee meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights? What do you think?

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I want to clarify that it's a five-minute back and forth with the justice. We listened to the feedback offered by members of the committee and that process was changed to allow for a more fulsome process tomorrow. It is a five-minute back and forth with the questioner.

Let me pass it off to the minister.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I guess I would underscore that tomorrow is a substantive process to be able to engage. It is historic. It enables the public to be invited into the process. It enables not only members of the House of Commons, but members of the Senate to ask questions.

Again, I think that this is an incredible opportunity for individuals not only around this table but beyond to be introduced to the nominee for the Supreme Court of Canada.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you.

I believe, Mr. Rankin, you were okay.

Liberals, are you okay?

I think we would all want to take this opportunity to thank you very much for appearing before the committee. Again, we really appreciate the work that you have done.

Finally, as you mentioned, Madam Minister, we will deliver a report with our recommendations and feedback in the very near future.

Thank you so much to both of you.