Evidence of meeting #42 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was family.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David McKillop  Vice-President, Legal Aid Ontario
David Field  President and Chief Executive Officer, Legal Aid Ontario
Albert Currie  Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Forum on Civil Justice
Kasari Govender  Executive Director, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Kasari Govender

The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives just put out an interesting report about the best place in Canada to be a woman. I can't remember where the best and the worst were, but B.C. is low in terms of spending on legal aid. It's very low in particular on family law. There is a patchwork. Different provinces weigh their different areas quite differently. They also have different levels of federal investment.

The other area, of course, in which women's equality matters is in refugee and immigration law. The federal government only contributes to some provinces, and B.C. is one of them. There is federal money going to B.C. on immigration and refugee law, whereas there isn't for places like Nova Scotia, for example.

There is a patchwork. I would like to see that equalized, and certainly see the services offered. Although Ontario right now is going through some push-back about how they have run their legal aid program, the fact that they have an extensive clinical system I think is enviable in terms of the rest of the country, and certainly enviable in terms of services to women and family law.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Mr. MacGregor.

Monsieur Boissonnault.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Govender and Mr. Currie, thank you both for being here today.

Ms. Govender, on your website your organization is described as being “committed to a vision of feminism that is inclusive of persons who are transgender and/or intersex and of their equality rights to be free from sex and gender discrimination.” Respecting intersectionalities and the role the organization plays in working with indigenous peoples as well, I have a policy question. Could you please advise this committee or make us aware of any issues related to gender identity or gender expression that this committee should be mindful of when we're making our recommendations in terms of legal aid funding and how the system is structured?

Then there's the organization writ large. Could you share with us some examples of cases in the LGBTQ community, whether they be refugee cases or same-sex domestic violence cases? What are the types of cases you see in B.C. within this particular community? Then I'll have follow-up questions.

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Kasari Govender

We've been grappling with some interesting issues around gender identity in terms of the Rise Women's Legal Centre that we opened. Obviously it has the word “women” in the title, and the way we approached that, from the very beginning, was to define women as self-defined. That still does buy into a binary role around gender, and it's something that we have received some push-back on.

From my perspective, I do think it's really important to recognize how gender-based violence is a significant issue for people who do not identify as male. That could take into account people who identify as a woman, or identify as non-binary, or as anything else. There are unique ways in which violence impacts people who identify as women, and that needs to be included in our understanding, not necessarily explicitly outlined in policy but included in our understanding of how access to justice policy and funding disproportionately impacts different populations.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

What steps have you taken to make sure that West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund is a safe space; that people know they can be welcome; that people will have appropriate training; that you will be sensitive; and that when they walk through the door, they know it will be a safe space?

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Kasari Govender

It's mostly Rise Women's Legal Centre that they will be walking through the doors of. That's a separate organization, but it's one that we're intimately involved in. The students are all receiving training from a lawyer in the community who's very active on trans rights and who also identifies as non-binary.

We're building that in more and more. We've made it quite central on the website, because we've received some feedback around the fact that we have “women” in the title. We were asked how people who don't identify along traditional gender lines could identify with the way in which we've described the limitations of our clinic. So we've tried to really put that out there in the world.

For the people who staff the clinic, there are no restrictions on the gender identity of the people who work there.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Given this wait-list now and your current caseload, what are your early statistics telling you about the number of indigenous versus non-indigenous people you're serving?

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Kasari Govender

I don't have those. Rise clinic is gathering that information in all their intake forms, but I don't have that at my fingertips. We are doing outreach to the indigenous community. There's a community advisory council that directs the work of the clinic, and there's strong indigenous representation on that.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

So for my colleagues, what we're hearing across the country is the lack of training in the legal system—the basic courts system, the lawyers system. That's certainly so when a case gets to trial in terms of issues related to gender identity, gender expression, and even within the LGBTQ community more broadly. I'm wondering if you're taking any steps, if you've been asked to provide training to law students, or if you've been invited to provide training to people who are actively members of the criminal justice system as it stands right now.

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Kasari Govender

We haven't, but some of that work is happening in B.C. There isn't a really strong legal organization representing those interests. Certainly we do, but we also recognize that we have some limitations in where we're coming from. There are couple of lawyers in the community who are really doing a push out and doing some work through our Continuing Legal Education Society, reaching out to lawyers. I don't know about the judiciary, though. I can't answer that.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

I appreciate that.

Mr. Currie, thank you for your presentation. I loved the last two bullets of your presentation—it was all great—about legal aid being an active laboratory for policy change and also an incubator. Could you share with us a couple of experiences, perhaps in the work you've seen done, where legal aid has provided advice to policy changes for diverse or marginalized populations?

5:10 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Forum on Civil Justice

Dr. Albert Currie

Could you say the last sentence again, please? It's for what kind of populations?

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

It's with regard to indigenous populations, LGBTQ, women—wherever you've seen alternative forms of justice actually serve as the kind of indicator you're saying they are.

5:10 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Forum on Civil Justice

Dr. Albert Currie

I'll ask Kasari to help me here. I can't think of any that specifically address aboriginal populations.

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Kasari Govender

There are clinical services that are directed at indigenous communities. There's the indigenous legal centre in Vancouver. Going back to the earlier question, that is another partnership with UBC. In fact it's not just a partnership; it is a UBC law clinic, whereas ours is not. That is a really innovative model.

As well, the LSS, or the Legal Services Society, launched just last year what they call their parenting legal centre. It's a little bit confusing, because it doesn't do family law, only child protection. It is particularly focused on the needs of the indigenous community because so many indigenous kids are in care. It's staffed by an indigenous lawyer. Their only lawyer there is indigenous. There are some potentially interesting things happening around access to justice in the indigenous community in B.C.

I just want to note that in the concluding comments of the CEDAW committee, there's a specific recommendation about training indigenous people to deliver legal aid and to work in legal aid services in order to build that connection more. In particular, there's the Kell case, a specific complaint to the CEDAW committee coming out of the Northwest Territories about an indigenous woman seeking legal aid on family law. Canada has not resolved that. So there's a particular call around indigenous legal services from the international community.

5:15 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Forum on Civil Justice

Dr. Albert Currie

It has just occurred to me—I think slowly—that with regard to the intermediary partnerships I was talking about, one of the clinics partnered with an aboriginal organization. They didn't produce very many assessments and referrals, so we went out and asked them why. The people managing the aboriginal service told us that young aboriginal people want to talk to elders. They want to talk to aboriginal lawyers. So there's a matter of trust here.

With regard to the clinics, similar to what Kasari was talking about in terms of the legal aid clinic system in Ontario, for example, there's an aboriginal justice clinic. At least for now, given the state of relations, I think that's what will make a difference: developing delivery mechanisms that establish trust. If you don't have that, they won't come.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you both very much.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Mr. Boissonnault.

We have a couple of minutes left, so what I suggest again is doing our short “snappers”.

Brief questions are fine.

We ask also for brief answers.

Who has a brief question?

Mrs. Boucher, would you like the floor?

February 2nd, 2017 / 5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Yes, Mr. Chair. I have some questions to ask, and perhaps Mr. Currie or Ms. Govender could respond.

Thank you very much. What you're saying is very interesting. You mentioned that very few people go to court to solve their problems, and that 60% of them do it on their own, which has an impact on legal aid.

Based on these figures, is it possible to know whether women seek aid less often than others?

5:15 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Forum on Civil Justice

Dr. Albert Currie

Forgive me, while I caught the last part of your question, the first part didn't come through.

Generally, no, but it depends on the area. In family law, women are more likely to seek help. In other areas, I can't remember the numbers specifically, but I'm going to say, no, there's not much of a difference.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Violence against women—

5:15 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Forum on Civil Justice

Dr. Albert Currie

This gets complicated because these problems very often do not occur in isolation. They occur in clusters, and they're interdependent. You find people with family law problems, but they're linked to debt problems, consumer problems, and a range of other problems, not only legal problems but clusters of legal and non-legal problems that are connected together in ways that are difficult to disentangle. In situations like that, it's difficult just to tease out men versus women.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Ms. Govender, did you have anything to add to Madame Boucher's question?

5:15 p.m.

Executive Director, West Coast Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Any other questions from the panel?

Mr. MacGregor.