Evidence of meeting #44 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lawyers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Fellow members, thank you.
Thank you to the witnesses we heard from today.
I'm going to get right into my questions.
Ms. Valois and Mr. Goldberg, approximately what percentage of your refugee clients belong to the LGBTQ community?
4 p.m.
Executive Member, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers
I would say it is around 15%.
4 p.m.
Liberal
4 p.m.
Executive Member, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers
I have many clients from Africa.
4 p.m.
Executive Member, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers
Yes, from north and central Africa.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Okay, I have a similar question for Mr. Thomas. Of the most marginalized people whom you deal with, what percentage are LGBTQ and what percentage would be indigenous, in rough numbers?
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Law Commission of Ontario
I don't know the answer to the first question. On the second question regarding the proportion of indigenous clients, I think it depends on the area of law. In criminal law, it's approximately 15% or 20% of the clientele. In child protection law, the legal aid caseload—and here I stand to be corrected—I think is somewhere between 20% and 30% of the overall caseload, so it's very high.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
I'll start with Mr. Thomas, and then come back to Mr. Goldberg and Madame Valois. What is the difference in success between a person who is represented by somebody who is providing legal aid, and someone who can't get representation? Where do you see the numbers? What is the rate of success for the plaintiffs?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Law Commission of Ontario
To my knowledge, there is no Canadian research on that topic, which is not to say that people don't have opinions about it, as I do. In my view, having a lawyer or some kind of legal representation, either a staff lawyer or a private lawyer, or whoever, is absolutely fundamental and crucial to being able to vindicate your rights. Even if you are, at criminal law, found guilty in the end, you nevertheless have important procedural rights, process rights, charter rights. You need an advocate to help you, who will speak on your behalf.
There is American research that talks about the difference between self-representation and clients who are represented. I don't have that at my fingertips but I can provide it to the committee. I'll track it down.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
That would be great.
Madame Valois, and Mr. Goldberg, on the refugee and immigration side, have you any sense of the success rates between those who are represented versus those who go on their own?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Member, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers
Sean Rehaag, from Toronto, actually did a study on the subject. I don't have the exact percentages he arrived at, but he found that there was a considerable difference in the success rates of cases where people have representation and those where they do not. I will also tell you that refugee claimants who are not represented do not know how to make their claim. They do not know what evidence to provide, and that means a lot of wasted time for the tribunal.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
4:05 p.m.
Executive Member, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers
The delays are quite significant. It's really not efficient. The officers of the tribunal lose a considerable amount of time with unrepresented refugee claimants, having to explain the process to them, make copies, and so forth. It gets a bit complicated.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
As someone from the management consulting world with some economics training, I was interested, Mr. Thomas, in your allusion to supply and demand. Both in your world and then again that of immigration and refugees, what percentage of the demand out there does your current funding allow you to serve? What is the total basket of that, if you had all the funding you needed? What is that number, and what percentage of that are you able to serve with the current levels of funding?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Law Commission of Ontario
In my current job, I'm not sure I can answer that. I've been out of the Legal Aid Ontario world for a while. I do, however, know people who can provide an answer to that question for you.
February 9th, 2017 / 4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
It's be helpful for us to understand the scope of the issue. If we try to move the needle 50%, but it's only going to make a 2% difference to the demand, then what are we doing here? However, if we are able to make a 20% jump and that would help us cut the demand significantly in addition to some of the demand issues that you raised in terms of law reform, then that interests me.
What about on the immigration and refugee side?
What is the total share of the demand, and what percentage of people are you able to help at the current funding levels, particularly in Quebec?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Member, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers
Right now, anyone who requests a legal aid mandate for a basic application can be represented, but the system has hit the saturation point. Refugee claims are on the rise. We are getting a lot of people, especially since 2017 began. The lawyers are burnt out as well. Young lawyers don't necessarily choose to work in the legal aid system. I think we're at a critical point right now.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Would you be in favour of adding certain countries to the Refugee Protection Division expedited country list? If so, which countries would you suggest?
4:05 p.m.
President, Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers
As far as the expedited process is concerned, we used to have a system whereby all claimants could be considered. We would examine the cases to determine whether the likelihood of success was high. Currently, that is done only for three countries, and even then, there are problems. Ms. Valois could elaborate on that. Very few cases are chosen, as things stand.
I think the IRB is fully aware that the process could be a lot more efficient.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
I'm running out of time, but in a future answer maybe you would let us know how we could have better coordination between all the players in the system as well. If you have any follow-up recommendations on countries we could look at, or on ways to make that process better, I think that would also inform our study.
Thank you.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you very much, Mr. Boissonnault.
I would appreciate it, Mr. Thomas, if you could furnish the statistics that you mentioned, whenever you are able. Thank you very much.
Mr. MacGregor, you are next.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'll start with you, Mr. Goldberg, if I may.
When we began this particular part of our study on access to justice, we started by interviewing members of the Department of Justice who could give us a technical briefing and overview of the plan. I was going over their testimony and they were giving us the facts and figures. Since 2001, the federal legal aid program has provided an annual contribution of $11.5 million to six provinces for the delivery of immigration and refugee legal aid services.
Here we are in 2017, and I'd just like to hear your feedback on that static number and how it has compared with client demand over that time.