Evidence of meeting #51 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was accused.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
President, Alberta Federation of Police Associations
The CPIC information can be obtained within 30 seconds to a minute. A JOIN check is another computer program we can consult, and that can be done within a minute and a half to two minutes.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
Right. I don't see how that would create a huge backlog because of that three minutes of time at the outset to provide the information that would have been so terribly relevant to the case with Mrs. Wynn's husband.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
As a result of Mr. Rehn's release, Mrs. Wynn's husband's life was forfeited because of a lack of information.
Mr. Trudell, I want to direct a question at you. First, I want to make an observation. You said that at the end of the process, at the end of the conversation, the accused's right to bail is what's preeminent. Is that really what you believe?
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers
Absolutely. That's in the interest of the public.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
Okay. I don't necessarily share that that's the most preeminent thing, but I understand that you're here representing defence counsel.
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers
No, I'm not. I'm here as a member of the public and we don't just look at it in isolation. The charter is the umbrella that we work under everyday. I've been a victim of crime. I've defended people that have committed terrible offences and I've defended people who were totally innocent, but the public safety and the interests of the public include the proper and proportionate application of the law. It's not one side of the street or the other, with great respect.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
If you were in a situation where you were defending the individual and the justice said to you that you may provide information or that you shall provide information, what difference would those comments carry? What difference in weighting would there be in your own mind?
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers
If a justice said to me—
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
If a justice said, “Mr. Trudell, you may provide this information” or “you shall provide this information”.
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers
I think a justice is always going to say to the defence, “you may”. I can't think of too many circumstances where the justice will compel, but let's go on the other side of the coin. If I were a crown and the justice said, “Mr. Trudell you shall”, then I might say, “Your worship, I need an adjournment because it's not available. I have done the best I can to put all the information before you, so if you're saying 'shall', then I'm not prepared to go today. We're going to have to put this over until I can speak to the officer in charge and get some information that wasn't available, or the police officer, who usually is here and presses the button in five seconds to get this material, is not available, so I don't have anyone to do this. We're going to have to ask this bail hearing to stand down”. That's how it works everyday.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
We've just heard testimony that this information is available in three minutes.
5:15 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers
You're not going to make a decision on the legislation on the basis that the CPIC information is available in three minutes. You don't need legislation for that. With great respect, your concerns are much larger than that.
It's easy to say, if the CPIC system is operating properly, and if the information has been downloaded from British Columbia, or Nunavut, or wherever this person was before, and I have somebody to give me that information, then yes, it's going to be available in a couple of minutes. I reiterate: “if”.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB
Mr. Trudell, right now the legislation is written that they “may” consider that information, so it's obviously already in the Criminal Code for a reason. It's because somebody considered it important enough to put it in there. This bill changes the word “may” to “shall”, which carries a completely different weighting and context to the importance of providing that information.
5:15 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers
With respect, and I'm not arguing with you, it's just that you are looking at bail in a microcosm. There are many concerns and many issues in relation to the bail, on primary, secondary, and tertiary grounds. It's a judicial hearing and a judicial decision is going to be made. You can't just take one piece and say that will change it. In my respectful submission, the fact that a person has a criminal record is relevant and it is almost always before the courts right now.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Just following up on that questioning to you, Mr. Elliott, I asked earlier, but I want to make sure that everyone's clear on this. The document that was presented, basically a bail report, CPIC, doesn't contain any information with regard to the circumstances of the alleged offence or probability of conviction on the charge before the court? I want you to comment on that. You say that the CPIC information can be gathered in three minutes, but I guess that's different from what the circumstances of the alleged offence are, right? That information is produced in a different manner, correct?
5:15 p.m.
President, Alberta Federation of Police Associations
Well, sort of, because when we provide information.... If I arrest an accused and have him on a charge for break and enter, for example, I will provide a summary of the information that led me to arrest this person. That will be the primary grounds. I can show that I am bringing the accused before the justice of the peace because of a charge of a break and enter, and I provide the justice of the peace with a summary of what led up to that break and enter.
Now, to provide background on that information, let me reword it this way. If I arrest you, sir, on a charge of break and enter, and I bring you before a justice of the peace to see if you can get bail, I also have the ability to acquire information that shows that while you may not even be convicted of anything, you have 25 or 30 outstanding charges against you before the courts. I think that's pertinent. Even though the accused has not been found guilty of any of these crimes, knowing that an accused has 25 outstanding charges or 20 or 15, I think, is very relevant information.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
I agree, but I'm talking about circumstances of the offences. That's different from your criminal record, right?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
He's talking about proposed subparagraph 518(1)(c)(iv). That's what he's talking about specifically.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
That's different from the information that you're going to garner from the CPIC report, which you're talking about printing off.
5:15 p.m.
President, Alberta Federation of Police Associations
Yes, CPIC reports are what the accused has been convicted of. We can go further into the CPIC report, and we can also see whether the accused has previous charges that have been withdrawn or removed.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Do police officers sometimes testify at bail hearings to talk about circumstances of alleged offences?
5:15 p.m.
President, Alberta Federation of Police Associations
It depends on the jurisdiction. In Edmonton, for example, I can tell you that bail hearings were always done by police officers. There was a judge, I believe, out of Calgary, and I think my colleague already alluded to his or her name, who stated that now police officers cannot do bail hearings unless a summary—