Evidence of meeting #54 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was french.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andrée-Anne Martel  Executive Director, Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario
Mark Benton  Chief Executive Officer, Legal Services Society

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights as we resume our study on access to justice with the component of legal aid.

I am very pleased to welcome Mr. Duvall to the committee for the first time.

I thank all the regular members for being here.

Today, two groups will testify before us. We welcome the Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario, represented by Ms. Andrée-Anne Martel, the executive director.

Welcome, Ms. Martel.

3:30 p.m.

Andrée-Anne Martel Executive Director, Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

We also have the Legal Services Society represented by Mark Benton, who is the chief executive officer.

Welcome, Mr. Benton.

As I explained to both witnesses, we're going to start with a presentation from each group and then move to questions from the committee.

We will begin with Ms. Martel.

You have the floor.

3:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario

Andrée-Anne Martel

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, honourable members of the committee, hello.

Access to justice goes beyond legal aid. While legal aid is important to ensure access to justice, its availability is restricted by income and the field of law in question. Access to justice in both official languages goes beyond access to legal aid. In this regard, we are submitting two recommendations today.

Here is our first recommendation:

The House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights recommend that the federal government make sustainable investments in legal projects aimed at helping Canadians understand their rights in the official language of their choice.

This first recommendation stems from the following issue: the question of access to justice is not an issue for multinational corporations. It is an issue for middle class citizens who become involved in day-to-day legal issues. Here are a few examples: employment, divorce, child custody, housing, and social assistance. Often, people dealing with such legal issues do not have the financial means or access to information in the official language of their choice to obtain the legal services they need. They make too much money to qualify for legal aid, but not enough money to afford a lawyer. In this regard, the AJEFO believes the federal government can further equal access to justice in both official languages by supporting innovative projects that complement the existing traditional legal aid model.

The AJEFO has spearheaded two such projects: first, the Ottawa Legal Information Centre, the first of its kind in Ontario; and second, CliquezJustice.ca, an easy to understand legal information portal. I will give you a concrete example of the services offered through these projects. Take Beatrice, for example. Beatrice is a single mother of three. She works as a cashier in a local store. Beatrice is suddenly fired without reasonable cause. Her home is at risk and this situation will affect her custody of her children. Beatrice needs access to justice, in the language of her choice, but she makes $25,000 per year and therefore does not qualify for legal aid services.

Our organization, the AJEFO, has developed an approach to help Beatrice find the information needed to facilitate her access to justice: Beatrice visits the Ottawa Legal Information Centre, where she is welcomed in both official languages and where she can speak French. She has a free meeting with a lawyer, who refers her to CliquezJustice.ca to help her understand her rights in terms of employment, housing, and child custody. Without providing legal advice, the lawyer gives Beatrice the legal information she needs to take the appropriate actions to resolve her issues. Thereafter, Beatrice can navigate CliquezJustice.ca to further her research. That was our first recommendation.

Here is our second recommendation:

The House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights recommend that the federal government invest in the creation of legal tools for legal professionals to help them offer services in the official language of their client's choosing, specifically in official language minority communities.

We believe every Canadian faced with a legal issue should have access to a legal professional, such as a lawyer, who has the necessary tools—precedents, for instance—to offer legal services in the client's preferred official language. This second recommendation stems from the following issue: most legal tools are only available in English in common law jurisdictions.

I'd like to share an anecdote that we hear far too often from our members: New parents Emile and Mathieu meet with their lawyer, Mr. Leblanc, to draft their will. They live in a common law jurisdiction. Mr. Leblanc receives instructions from Emile and Mathieu in French. However, Mr. Leblanc only has access to an English template of a will. Emile and Mathieu can either choose to receive an English will or pay to have the template translated. We would argue that imposing extra costs on them does not provide equal access to justice in both official languages.

The AJEFO has a solution to this. In 2013, we launched a Canada-wide portal called Jurisource.ca. We provide free legal tools such as precedents, lexicons, checklists, forms, and professional development training. These tools are just as beneficial to members of the public as they are to professionals working in the legal field. They reduce research time for legal professionals as well as the costs incurred by the client. Let's take the scenario involving Mr. Leblanc: with a French precedent, available on Jurisource.ca, Mr. Leblanc can draft Emile and Mathieu's will in French.

In closing, I highlight that access to justice remains a real issue for all Canadians. However, francophones living in linguistic minority communities face the added challenge of obtaining equal access to justice in French. Statistics demonstrate that marginalized and middle class Canadians often do not have adequate access to justice. This challenge is exacerbated when clients must choose between proceeding in French, increasing delays and consequent additional costs, or proceeding in English.

I hope to have provided a clearer picture of alternate solutions to improve access to justice, beyond the traditional view of legal aid.

Please feel free to visit our offices in Ottawa at 85 Albert Street, suite 1400. I would gladly answer any questions you may have.

Thank you very much.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We're going to go to Mr. Benton.

Mr. Benton, the floor is yours, sir.

3:35 p.m.

Mark Benton Chief Executive Officer, Legal Services Society

Thank you very much.

Committee members, ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to speak broadly about legal aid in Canada. I will speak briefly to some issues of indigenous access to justice, which legal aid plans are working on right now, and I would welcome any questions more broadly that you might have.

I've spent about 30 years working in and around legal aid. I also get to do some international development work in legal aid, so I have a perspective that's a little broader than do many people who work in legal aid on a day-to-day basis.

I agree that access to justice is more than legal aid, but legal aid is the principal tool for access to justice for many low-income people in this country. The problem is that we really don't have a national legal aid program. What we have is a series of 13 provincial and territorial legal aid programs, with very little consistency among them. They don't even define what a case is in the same way. What we see are really historical funding patterns rather than strategic and purposive funding patterns. This is particularly so with the federal funding, which is typically, for provinces, a contribution agreement-style funding to provincial legal aid plans. Territorial funding is a little bit different and involves more details than I'll go into here.

The real problem is that we have funding models that were designed in the 1970s and that have deteriorated significantly since then. They started as fifty-fifty cost-sharing agreements, and are somewhere in the low twenties right now in terms of the contribution value. What we have is very little strategic development and not quite as much innovation as we'd like to see.

My first recommendation is that there ought to be increased, sustainable, and strategic federal investments in legal aid. It's important. It's important for how the justice system works, not just for how people experience it or how they resolve their problems but for the efficiency of the system itself.

My colleague referred to financial eligibility, the number of people who don't get legal aid. In the 1970s when that fifty-fifty cost-sharing agreement came to be, financial eligibility standards were very flexible. They were based on a real ability to afford a lawyer. These days, the highest most generous ones are one of the poverty measures. Below that, there are many legal aid plans that have eligibility standards that fall below Canadian standards for poverty. It is shameful, but it's a reality of what happens when funding becomes squeezed at a number of different levels.

My second recommendation is that we have a sense of a national standard. A federal national standard for eligibility for legal aid is important, it's valuable, and it's what should be central to what Canadian legal aid is. That may differ from community to community as costs of living differ. Nonetheless, we manage to define poverty in ways that are flexible in that regard. There's no reason that ability to afford a lawyer couldn't be done the same way.

Third, we don't have a standard for legal aid beyond the bare minimum court-required standard for criminal legal aid and for child protection legal aid. There's nothing that we could call a Canadian standard for legal aid. As is probably obvious to you, that could be an area for federal engagement. It is not at the moment. It's important. It's important because when we go across the country, there are places in which, for example, family legal aid, even for those who are eligible for it, only gets them a restraining order. It doesn't resolve the problem, and it doesn't move them to a resolution and allow them to get on with their lives.

Those are my broad comments about legal aid.

There's a third area that's increasingly prominent from an international perspective, and that is legal aid plans being a policy adviser to government, largely because they see more areas of the justice system than do other parts of the system. They represent criminal defendants, family litigants, and refugees. They often provide public legal education and legal information. They are out-of-court problem-solvers. They manage large cases, and in some cases, they are actual policy advisers. This is something that the International Bar Association is recommending in its new set of guidelines for legal aid, and it seems to be an area in which there's a value to be added and a way in which legal aid can assist through committees like this and assist government broadly in policy development.

Those are, generally, my recommendations, particularly with regard to legal aid.

With regard to indigenous access to justice, this is a big deal for legal aid. In British Columbia—the statistics I have—30% of our criminal clients are of indigenous heritage. About 28% of our family clients are of indigenous heritage, and about 42% of our child protection clients have indigenous heritage. Now I know those are just numbers, but the number that goes with those is 6%. That's the indigenous population in British Columbia. They are suffering legal problems at a higher rate than the general population. They're marginalized in significant ways from justice system functions, and there is very little that's being done to address that systemically within the justice system.

Looking at our own domains in British Columbia, we discovered that, notwithstanding the cultural sensitivity training and all the other pieces that we do to try to build effective bridges into those communities, our services were found to be unfriendly, unaccessible, and simply not communicated in an effective way. That's because legal aid plans tend to be run by lawyers. They tend to be administered by lawyers. They tend to be focused on justice system values rather than the importance of what people want when they appear in front of us. This isn't peculiar to indigenous communities; it's just extreme in indigenous communities.

Here is a list of recommendations I have in that regard. My recommendations are based on about three years of consultations down at the community level. These are not political consultations but rather more pragmatic ones.

There needs to be funding to establish and operate a network of community advocates to support people using the justice system. These are not lawyers; they may not even be court workers. They are people in the community who know what's happening. In health care there are navigators, and an analogue to that is needed in justice.

There ought to be professional development and training to build intercultural competency within the justice community, including skills-based training in intercultural competency, conflict resolution, human rights, and anti-racism. This isn't just about lawyers, though it includes lawyers. It includes everybody in the system. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action cover that quite clearly.

Provide funding to support the availability of quality-assured Gladue reports. As you may know, Gladue reports are a sentencing aid that apply to the indigenous population. They were set in the mid-1990s by federal legislation. I'm sure it won't surprise you that there are 13 justice jurisdictions, and there are 13 different ways Gladue reports are prepared and presented. There is no quality control nationally. There is nothing that you would recognize really from one jurisdiction to the next that it's a Gladue report other than the title. This is an area that was introduced through federal legislation. It has been litigated several times, but we still are not getting to the place where quality reports are prepared and presented in every jurisdiction in this country, and they need to be.

I recommend the inclusion of indigenous perspectives and practices in the existing system through committing to substantially increase the number of indigenous judges and lawyers in ways that we are not doing yet. Funding for first nations courts, Gladue courts, and other indigenous-based practices that appear.... In British Columbia we have first nations courts. Anecdotally, at least in the studies under way, they appear to make a real difference, particularly to serial offenders who are held accountable by the elders of their communities rather than a judge, though the elders have the support of the judge. To speak to those folks, who as you might imagine are on a legal aid plan, often means they're frequent flyers for us. To have them leave the system is a huge achievement, and we support both the training of the elders and the provision of counsel in those courts because it gets better results.

The federal funding for restorative justice programs is a good start, but it's only just a good start. It has been there for years. It doesn't, at least from the legal aid perspective nationally, appear to be coherent and strategically focused. It should be, and it should be expanded. It gets great respect in the communities where it works, and the communities themselves benefit because the capacity of the community to address legal issues is addressed effectively.

Mr. Chairman, those are my comments in the time available.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Mr. Benton.

We very much appreciate the interventions of both witnesses. You brought very important perspectives to us. Now we're going to move to questions. We're going to start with Mr. Nicholson.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here with us today. You underline just how complicated in many ways all these issues are, and we appreciate your input.

Ms. Martel, I'll start with you. One of the things that you say you provide people at certain of the projects that you've put together is legal information but not legal advice. What in particular would be holding that back? Presumably these people are solicitors and they're members of the legal community. Why wouldn't they give them advice as opposed to just providing them with forms?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario

Andrée-Anne Martel

Our model is based on the existing model in Quebec, which is called the Centres de justice de proximité. Quebec currently has about nine centres. In 2012 and 2013 when we were examining the feasibility of opening such a centre, the Ottawa Legal Information Centre, studies were done to see if the centre would offer legal information or advice. It is proven that legal information does help an individual who is facing a legal issue. At this centre we limit the information to legal information.

If we take the example of Béatrice coming into the centre, she would meet with a lawyer for half an hour and receive legal information. What do I mean by this? She receives explanations on the law. If she's facing a family law issue, we'll speak about children, custody, and access to her children. We'll explain to her in simple terminology her housing issue and her employment issue. She receives this information and can then navigate the system by herself.

If she decides to see a lawyer and seek legal advice, she would be saving her time in terms of being better prepared for her meeting with the lawyer. She is also saving court time. If she does decide to self-represent before the court, she is better prepared and has the documents in hand, thus saving the province and the country money. About 90% of the individuals who visit the Ottawa Legal Information Centre are self-represented litigants. I'm sure you've seen the studies indicating that about 50% to 60% of litigants are self-represented.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You made a very good point at the beginning.

You said the access to justice and the issues within it should not be focused on corporations. That's not the problem in our system. It is individuals who are challenged by all these different issues and, many times, problems.

One of the things I know you touched upon was this whole idea of translation and the two systems of law that we have in this country. If you look at the Canadian judicial system you have the common law in nine of the 10 provinces. Translations aren't always perfect and sometimes things mean different things. If you talk about a mortgage it has different concepts in the civil law as opposed to the common law, so it actually adds to the complications that we have. I imagine this is one of the other things that you see on a regular basis in trying to handle two systems of law and two languages in this country.

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario

Andrée-Anne Martel

Absolutely.

That comes to our second recommendation that touches on tools for justice-sector professionals. You were speaking about mortgages. In French that's an hypothèque. You need tools to ensure that our justice-sector professionals have the tools to serve their clients in French, or in the official language of their choice.

Let's take our example again. Émile and Mathieu want to have their will in French. With a will in English, when a lawyer is only working with a precedent that's only available in English, they have an option. They can either translate it to French or proceed in English. If they do decide to proceed in French they have to incur the cost of translation, which is unfair.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you very much for that.

Mr. Benton, we've heard a number of things about the different things the federal government could be doing. You brought up one interesting point about the Gladue decision and the papers that are involved with that. You said there's no standardization across the country. I've actually heard sometimes from different people working within departments of justice across Canada and our territories that an argument can be made that there's a good reason for that, because it's not the same in New Brunswick as it is in Nunavut. British Columbia has different issues as well, so the idea of the standardization actually can be a little more challenging here.

Again, there's a certain push-back that you get. Just because something works in St. Catharines, Ontario, doesn't mean it will necessarily work in Whitehorse. Do you know what I'm saying?

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Legal Services Society

Mark Benton

I do, and I agree, particularly when we look at the variations in indigenous cultures in Canada. Frankly, it's basically what the Gladue reports are reporting on. They'd have to be developed in different ways.

At the same time, the concern I'm expressing to you is that it is pretty haphazard. There's no effort being made and one could now be made, since we now have close to 20 years' experience with Gladue reports, to figure out what the best practices are and at least share them from jurisdiction to jurisdiction to at least promote best practice. I'm not a big fan of saying, “Here's the form to fill out.” That's not what I'm proposing, but I do believe that after 20 years we ought to be doing better than we are and we ought to have creative—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Do you see any willingness on the part of the provinces to co-operate with the federal government? My experience, or the experience of many, is that the provinces say please send us more money and thank you very much. Actually, I shouldn't say “thank you”. It's actually “more”. You know what I mean, “Send us more money.”

Are you starting to hear that the provinces would be more willing to get on the ground here in terms of providing services? The argument could be made that if the federal government is going to be paying directly for it, that takes a little of the pressure off you. However, very often over the years, I didn't get that from them. They usually would say to just send them the cheque, and send them more, and they would take care of it.

On the other hand, you have been studying this for three years. Are you seeing any change in that?

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Legal Services Society

Mark Benton

First of all, I think that tune is a well-worn tune that everybody knows the words to. It's the common tune and continues to be the common tune.

I think this issue, and I'm speaking from a legal aid perspective rather than a provincial government perspective—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Fair enough.

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Legal Services Society

Mark Benton

For example, in Nova Scotia it's the judges who develop and pay for the Gladue reports. In B.C., it's the legal aid plan. In Ontario, the legal aid plan does it through friendship centres. There are a variety of different approaches.

Of course, I'm one of those folks who sings the songs to the provincial government that sound a lot like the ones the provinces sing to the federal government about funding. I think the reality is that, because there is no common approach, we get disparate sources.

To answer your question in a straightforward way, I have not heard the provinces changing their language around that issue. However, I think the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action provide a different way to frame the conversation around indigenous access to justice that's important. This is an example where that may be put forward. I'm here recommending it to you because I feel it's not being promoted as it should be.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Fair enough.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Mr. Boissonnault, you have the floor.

May 2nd, 2017 / 3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Martel, thank you for your presentation.

As you know, francophones living in linguistic minority communities must by necessity learn to live in the language of the majority. However, they have rights associated with their mother tongue. I think it is important to share with my colleagues the real and practical impact felt by francophones when there is lack of access to a fundamental right, the right to access to a justice system in French.

How are people in linguistic minority communities, who must access services such as health and education services in their second language, affected by this situation?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario

Andrée-Anne Martel

Thank you, Mr. Boissonnault.

For a francophone in a linguistic minority community, bringing proceedings in French is more expensive and takes more time. I can give you some practical examples. I talked to you about Béatrice's situation, but I can go even further.

AJEFO members often share anecdotes with me. For example, in Ottawa, express motions are processed on Friday mornings. The lawyer arrives; his documents are prepared in French. But once they get to the express motion, which lasts from 15 to 20 minutes, we find out that the judge is a unilingual anglophone.

What happens then?

We cannot pursue the process, because the judge does not understand the content of the documents. The 15-to-20-minute motion is delayed until the afternoon. This means in practice that the client, who has paid a lawyer to prepare the motion, will have to cover the lawyer's fees for a full day.

I can give you another example, a situation that happened in a court in Ottawa. This concerned a civil matter motion lasting an hour or less, for which we were entitled to a bilingual proceeding under the Courts of Justice Act. We called the court the day before the presentation of the motion and were told that no bilingual judge was available. The motion was therefore delayed three, four or five months.

For the client, the real consequence is that the lawyer, who was already ready, has to prepare a second time. This consequently implies higher costs. There are also more delays. Ultimately, the person who wanted to have his case dealt with in French suffers. Like Béatrice, this person can choose English or wait longer and pay more to have his case dealt with in French.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

As you know, our government has made it very clear that it encourages the appointment of bilingual judges. This involves all levels and all judges in the country.

What can we do, as a government, to help young people understand, even before they begin to study law, that practising in French and becoming a bilingual judge one day is an asset?

This affects practice, but also everything having to do with access to justice. I know that certain organizations in the country are your counterparts.

What is your opinion on this subject?

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario

Andrée-Anne Martel

Mr. Boissonnault, as you rightly said, young people must be encouraged to study law in both official languages. In Edmonton, for example, there is the Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Alberta. The best way to promote this is to work with organizations in the field, which are in contact with these young people and can encourage them to study in both official languages. There must be a whole process to raise awareness not just for young people, but for the population in general.

I will return to the examples of the projects I mentioned that are serving people in both official languages. For example, the Ottawa Legal Information Centre offers its services in both languages and does not discriminate based on language. People who turn to our centre obtain services in French and in English. If they speak a language other than French or English, such as Spanish, we can also serve them, because we have a partnership with an interpretation service to ensure that we can offer services in the language of the justice system user.

Nevertheless, we must raise awareness among young people who are going to continue their education, but also among the population in general.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

I have two more questions.

You represent Ontario, home to half of the millions of francophone Canadians outside Quebec. There are already problems in Ontario. To your knowledge, what is the situation in Alberta or in the Atlantic provinces? Is the situation worse than in Ontario, or are there provinces where access to justice in French is adequate?

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario

Andrée-Anne Martel

That's an excellent question, although I can't speak on behalf of Alberta or the AJEFA. However, I can tell you that recent reports about access to justice indicate that there is a national crisis: almost half of Canadians will face a legal problem during a three-year period.

Throughout Canada, more and more people are representing themselves. As I mentioned just now, 50% to 60% of people represent themselves in court, which can lead to costs and delays for the courts.

Certain projects are being carried out in provinces such as yours. For example, a legal information centre has been created in Calgary, in Alberta.