Evidence of meeting #56 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cannabis.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William F. Pentney  Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

It's a great pleasure to welcome our Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Jody Wilson-Raybould, along with so many people from different departments that I'm not sure I can introduce everybody. I want to thank all of these people from all of the different departments and agencies who are here with us to provide backup and support to the minister and to the committee.

Very much appreciated. It is not always possible for us to thank everyone who works for the department and agencies. On behalf of all committee members, I would like to thank you for your conscientious work.

That being said, we are going to move straight to the testimony of the minister. Then we'll move to questions.

Minister, the floor is yours. Thank you for being here.

3:20 p.m.

Vancouver Granville B.C.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Certainly I always appreciate being in front of this committee, and I look forward to answering questions after I make some brief remarks.

Of course I want to acknowledge the territory of the Algonquin people.

For your benefit, Mr. Chair, and the benefit of the committee, I will note that I am joined by William Pentney, deputy minister of justice and deputy attorney general; Nathalie Drouin, associate deputy minister; Donald Piragoff, senior assistant deputy minister; and Johanne Bernard, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer.

Today I'd like to talk to you about how the Department of Justice Canada intends to use its funds granted through 2017-18 main estimates to ensure a fair, relevant, and accessible Canadian justice system and a federal government that is supported by high-quality legal services.

Mr. Chair, as you are aware, the Department of Justice has a total budgetary authority of $656.1 million through 2017-18 main estimates. This represents a decrease of $22.7 million from main estimates of the previous fiscal year. However, early this morning our government tabled the 2017-18 supplementary estimates (A). These include $45.9 million announced in budget 2017 for the Department of Justice, which offsets the previously mentioned decrease resulting in proposed authorities in the amount of $702.1 million to date.

In addition to the budgetary authority, the department is also granted a vote netted revenue authority of $296.2 million to collect fees to offset a portion of the cost of legal services offered to other government departments.

Some of the $385 million of this year's authority will be used to help support the stewardship of the Canadian legal framework by directing funding to the provinces and territories.

The 2017-18 main estimates also indicate departmental operational expenditures of $234.3 million.

Mr. Chair, as the Minister of Justice and the Attorney General of Canada, I take my responsibilities and accountabilities very seriously. I would now like to speak more broadly about how the budget authority granted to the Department of Justice through the main estimates will help support my role as the steward of the Canadian justice system and ambassador of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which celebrates its 35th anniversary this year.

First, my review of the criminal justice system is ongoing. It is intended to ensure that our criminal laws protect Canadians, hold offenders to account, meet the highest standards of equity and fairness, show respect for the charter, and show compassion to victims. This, in turn, will help promote a justice system that protects Canadians, their communities, and their rights.

In March I introduced legislation that would remove or amend provisions of the Criminal Code that have been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Canada and appellate courts and that have no force in law. Removing these and other invalid provisions will make the Criminal Code clearer and more accessible and will help Canadians, including those involved in the criminal justice system, to better understand the current state of the law.

This is the start of our modernization of the criminal justice system to ensure that it shows the greatest possible respect for the charter and that it promotes access to justice.

Earlier this year I also worked with my colleague the honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Canadian Heritage to reinstate and expand the court challenges program. This program will ensure that the government remains accountable for protecting official languages, upholding human rights, and promoting access to justice for Canadians who need it most.

More recently I have been discussing the Supreme Court's decision in Jordan with my provincial and territorial counterparts. That decision proposed new ceilings and an interim framework for assessing when an accused's charter right to be tried within a reasonable time has been infringed.

At our most recent federal-provincial-territorial meeting, we identified mandatory minimum penalties, bail, administration of justice offences, preliminary inquiries, and reclassification of offences as priorities for legislative reform. Along with this most recent ministerial meeting, there have been continuing and ongoing discussions on access to justice among provincial and territorial ministers of justice and public safety, as well as other officials. We are all committed to ensuring that our criminal justice system is efficient and effective, and that Canadians can have the utmost confidence in it.

Moreover, our government will continue to address vacancies in our superior courts. Our process for judicial appointments emphasizes transparency, merit, and diversity, as well as the highest standards of excellence and integrity. Additionally, budget 2017 proposes additional funding of $55 million over five years, beginning in 2017-18, and $5.5 million per year thereafter, for 28 new federally appointed judges.

Mr. Chair, I am also committed to doing my part to renew the Government of Canada's nation-to-nation relationship with indigenous peoples based on the recognition of rights, respect, co-operation, and partnership. As a country, we know we have much work ahead of us in ensuring that indigenous peoples can take their rightful place within the Confederation. There is no question that indigenous peoples and communities are in a period of tremendous transformation and transition, rebuilding their nations. Our government recognizes that reconciliation requires an all-of-government approach, based on recognition of indigenous peoples and their rights, to address the colonial legacy in a substantive and meaningful way that will be transformative.

In addition to committing to implementing the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples without qualification, the Prime Minister recently established a working group of ministers to review all federal laws and policies. I am honoured to have been asked by the Prime Minister to chair this new working group. Our working group's mandate is nothing short of transformative: to decolonize federal laws, policies, and operational practices, and to ensure that all aspects of Canada's relationship with indigenous peoples are rooted in the recognition of rights.

Mr. Chair, our government has also included measures in budget 2017 to support the implementation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada's calls to action, including specific measures to address the overrepresentation of indigenous peoples in the criminal justice and correctional systems. Among these measures is the indigenous justice program, formerly the aboriginal justice strategy. Budget 2017 proposes to invest $55.5 million over five years, starting in 2017-18, as well as $11.1 million per year ongoing. This would provide long-term and stable investment in this program to encourage the use of community-based restorative justice approaches as an alternative to the criminal justice system and corrections.

Budget 2017 also proposes to provide $65.2 million over five years, beginning in 2017-18, and $10.9 million thereafter, to help reverse the trend of indigenous overrepresentation in Canada's criminal justice system and corrections, and to help previously incarcerated indigenous people heal, rehabilitate, and find good jobs.

Finally, Mr. Chair, the Government of Canada is unwavering in its commitment to ensuring that victims of sexual assault and gender-based violence are treated with the utmost respect and dignity. This commitment extends to Canada's judges and the judicial system. All Canadians should have confidence in the quality of Canada's judges and the judicial system.

To ensure that Canadian judges are sufficiently informed and sensitive to the evolving nature of Canadian society, as announced in budget 2017, our government increased funding to $2.7 million over five years, and $500,000 per year thereafter, for judicial training and judicial conduct with a gender and cultural lens. In addition, almost $100,000 in new funding from Justice Canada will be provided to the National Judicial Institute to develop training for both federally and provincially appointed judges that will focus on gender-based violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence.

Moreover, the Department of Justice Canada will continue to fund programs and services to support survivors of sexual assault and gender-based violence, and will continue to work with Status of Women Canada on the federal strategy on gender-based violence.

To date, Justice Canada has approved more than $10 million in funding to 46 projects over three years. Its ongoing review of the criminal justice system, as I mentioned earlier, will include a review of Criminal Code provisions related to sexual assault and consent.

To conclude, I certainly would like to thank your committee for the important work that you continue to do. Thank you for the opportunity to provide these opening remarks and overview. I look forward to answering any questions that the members may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Minister Wilson-Raybould, for those very cogent remarks.

We will start now with the first round of questioning.

I think, colleagues, we'll do two rounds while the minister is here. We are going to start with Mr. Nicholson.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you, Minister, and all those with you here today. Thank you for your appearance here. It is much appreciated.

There are so many different aspects of this department. As an attorney general, one of the responsibilities you have is to either intervene or get involved with all the lawsuits and applications before the court that could involve the federal government. I'd like to direct your attention to one in particular.

I'm sure you heard a couple of weeks ago the Supreme Court announce that it will hear a New Brunswick appeal of a lower court ruling that says citizens have a constitutional right to purchase alcohol in Quebec and take it into New Brunswick. I'm assuming, first of all, that you would support domestic free trade between the provinces and that you would support getting rid of limitations and restrictions on interprovincial trade.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I'm incredibly proud of our government in terms of negotiating the Canadian Free Trade Agreement. I know that in terms of the work that the Minister of Innovation is continuing to undertake, he's certainly mindful of that lawsuit and will continue to work with his counterparts in terms of the application of that agreement.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I'm sorry. I missed that. “...work with his counterparts...”? Who would that be, specifically?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

The minister is working with his counterparts.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

In terms of the legal actions before the Supreme Court of Canada, is it your intention to intervene and get involved in that particular case?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I will continue to work with my colleague, the Minister of Innovation, and take the appropriate action, as we determine, moving forward.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I think it would be very helpful. I hope when you're talking with this minister that you'll indicate to him that as important as it is to have a free trade agreement with the United States, NAFTA, or with Europe, certainly free trade within Canada somewhere along the line has to also be a priority. I hope that in your discussions with the minister you will encourage him to get involved in this case, with either intervenor status here or with support, because this is a critical one.

Will you take that advice?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I will certainly relay those comments to the minister.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you very much.

Minister, one of the pieces of legislation that you have introduced is with respect to cannabis. When you were here just about a year ago, one of the questions I asked you was this: “Just to be clear, with any changes the government does bring forward on this”—which is marijuana—“it's still going to be illegal for children to have marijuana. Is that correct, Minister?” Your answer to that was “correct”.

I was very polite. I said, “Thank you very much.”

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

You always do.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

What I'm concerned about, Minister, is the briefings we have received on this. Bill C-45 says that it is prohibited:

for a young person to possess cannabis of one or more classes of cannabis the total amount of which, as determined in accordance with Schedule 3, is equivalent to more than five grams of cannabis.

Then it goes on to say that it's prohibited for a young person to distribute more than five grams of cannabis.

Can I interpret from that—and I hope that it's not the case—that young people between the ages of 12 and 18 can possess and distribute, presumably sell, cannabis if they limit it to four grams?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

There's nothing in Bill C-45 that makes it legal for a young person to possess cannabis. We did, in developing the cannabis bill, have discussions around ensuring that we find some balance, recognizing that the ultimate objective of our legislation, of course, is to legalize, strictly regulate, and restrict access to keep it out of the hands of children and the proceeds out of the hands of criminals.

In having discussions around penalizing young people for possessing small amounts of marijuana, we sought to recognize and balance the ultimate objective that we are trying to achieve, along with ensuring that we do not criminalize young people for possession, which would lead to criminal records, but we are working very closely with the provinces and territories to see them move forward with regulation and laws similar to those for alcohol.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

What is going to be the status? The law is very clear that if you're in the schoolyard and I guess selling more than five grams, if you're a teenager or a young person, that's prohibited if you possess five or more grams, but I'm talking about the individual. Let's say he or she shows up in school with three or four grams. What is the status of that?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Again, in terms of young people being involved in selling or having other individuals use young people in trafficking, we have imposed in this legislation very serious penalties in terms of the maximum penalties, but again, in terms of less than five grams, this is something that we will continue to work on with the provinces and territories, to provide options, as they have around alcohol, to law enforcement officers to ensure that we don't over-criminalize young people. That's the balance that we strive to—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I don't think we're trying to over-criminalize, but you can see that there's a gap here in the legislation. I suppose that if you're into the business as a young person just selling the stuff, you'd want to be careful not to put more than five grams in your pocket if you're going to start selling. I'll be very interested to hear what—if anything—is going to be the result of this, because it seems to me that one of the intentions of the bill was to so-called protect children. If you make it not illegal if you are buying or selling and possessing four grams of marijuana, I think that's a problem.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Well, selling is always illegal with respect to cannabis, but again, we are working very closely with the provinces and territories to come up with a comprehensive regime that improves on the status quo, because the status quo simply isn't working.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

We'll go to just one more question, Mr. Chairman.

Again, the rationale behind or in part for this bill was to better protect children. Wouldn't you admit, Minister, though, that if every household in Canada can now have up to four marijuana plants, children will have the greatest access possible to marijuana if you have the plants in the house? Wouldn't you say that's an invitation to young people to get involved with marijuana?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

I will say that in developing Bill C-45 we had the benefit of working with health and safety experts, and we had the benefit of a substantive review and recommendations provided by the task force. Having four plants was a recommendation that was provided by the task force.

But I will say broadly, or on a high-level basis, that I want to reiterate the purpose of us introducing this legislation. The status quo is not working. It is very easy for a young person to gain access to cannabis right now. What we are seeking to do in legalizing is to strictly regulate and restrict access to cannabis in order to keep it out of the hands of kids and the proceeds out of the hands of criminals.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It seems to me, though, that if you have four plants in the house, that's greater access than is allowed under the current law.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC

Again, we're going to work with our counterparts in the provinces and territories to put in place a comprehensive regime that will provide strict regulation and restrict access.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

We're going to go to Mr. Boissonnault now.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB

Minister, thank you for being here today.

I appreciate your comments and your approach to your role as minister. As a member of indigenous caucus I'm particularly interested in all the good work you're doing to increase access and reduce the overrepresentation of indigenous peoples in the criminal justice system. I'm wondering if you could describe for us briefly the aboriginal courtwork program, why you believe this funding is important, and how it will improve access to justice. Then I have two other questions.