Evidence of meeting #62 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was drivers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Solomon  Distinguished University Professor, Faculty of Law, Western University, As an Individual
Roberto De Luca  Director, Public Safety Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Gaylene Schellenberg  Lawyer, Legislation and Law Reform, Canadian Bar Association
Kathryn Pentz  Treasurer, Criminal Justice Section, Canadian Bar Association
Peter Hogg  Scholar in Residence, Blake, Cassels & Graydon LLP, As an Individual
Markita Kaulius  President, Families For Justice
Jeff Walker  Chief Strategy Officer, National Office, Canadian Automobile Association
Tom Stamatakis  President, Canadian Police Association
Greg DelBigio  Director, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers
Jeff Brubacher  Medical Doctor, Department of Emergency Medicine, Faculty of Medicine, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Robert Mann  Senior Scientist, Institute for Mental Health Policy Research, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

5:50 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

That's very helpful. I appreciate your thoughts.

In your brief, you talk about random breath testing as being “usually administered by police at a stationary roadside checkpoint”. I understand that's what the premise of your remarks or your opinion is.

Would you not concede that there is a possibility, which others have brought forward, that certain visible minorities could be disproportionately targeted? In your city of Toronto, for example, police street checks, known as carding, have resulted in a disproportionate impact on the black community. They are 8.3% of Toronto's population but account for 25% of the cards police wrote from 2008 to mid-2011.

To your point about not doing a reference now but waiting, if the evidence were that there was a disproportionate impact on racialized groups and minorities, would that not give you pause in defending this under section 1 of the charter? That is, if the evidence were to that effect, and it wasn't simply being used at stationary roadside checkpoints but rather, as the Ladouceur minority said, “on a whim” by police officials, would that not give you pause? Could that affect your judgment as to whether this would pass constitutional scrutiny?

5:50 p.m.

Scholar in Residence, Blake, Cassels & Graydon LLP, As an Individual

Peter Hogg

It would give me pause if that were the case, Mr. Rankin, but I think the pause that I would make would be to look at the administration of the law, so that it does get cleansed of any kind of racial bias or anything like that. That was really the position of Professor Solomon when attempting to answer the same difficult question. It seems to me that this is going to be a very important contribution to road safety, and we have to get it right. I think a stoppage of all traffic does get it right.

Obviously, there is a risk that in some cases a police officer may pick a certain person for reasons that are inappropriate, and impose a random breath test. We can't eliminate that possibility.

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

I believe you gave a thorough legal opinion about seven years ago on this very issue. It was an excellent piece of work. At the time, it seemed to me—to build on the point I've been trying to make—that you were referring in that opinion only to random stops such as at a checkpoint. Of course, Bill C-46 is wider than that. It isn't narrowed to what I understand is the Irish experience but is more like the Australian experience, as I've heard it described. As you say, it may be that if everyone is stopped, there's no way that anyone could be accused of profiling in that context, because everyone gets stopped. There are many people who've expressed serious concern that this will be used in a random way to target certain minorities.

Considering your opinion written seven years ago, have you done a specific legal opinion assessing this bill, given that it's much broader than when you simply looked at checkpoints?

5:55 p.m.

Scholar in Residence, Blake, Cassels & Graydon LLP, As an Individual

Peter Hogg

The written submission to the committee is addressed to this. Yes, I have looked at that again.

It seems to me that the thrust of your question is whether it should it be required to do it at some kind of roadblock, which would eliminate the discretion and which I think everyone agrees is going to be the common way to do it. I don't think I would readily agree with that, because it does seem to me that late at night in rural areas it may not be feasible to have a roadblock, so inevitably some discretion has to be given to police officers. I can't eliminate the possibility of bias on the part of police officers. I would hesitate to reduce the random breath testing to the road stoppage, which is obviously the ideal thing, because that would work beautifully in the city, but it won't work very well in the country or at night. I don't think there is an easy answer to your very legitimate concern.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much. That was very interesting.

Mr. Ehsassi.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

I would like to thank all three of the witnesses for appearing before us, in particular, the very compelling testimony that we heard from Ms. Kaulius and of course Professor Hogg, who is the pre-eminent scholar in constitutional law.

If I could first start off with Professor Hogg, you were kind and good enough to actually refer to some case law, providing us with evidence perhaps that this legislation would be perfectly fine under section 20, that it would be safe, and you referred to case law. You did not do the same for section 9. Is there any particular case law that we should have the opportunity to review?

5:55 p.m.

Scholar in Residence, Blake, Cassels & Graydon LLP, As an Individual

Peter Hogg

Yes, there is case law under section 9 as well. It is referred to in my paper at footnote 3. There are two cases. One is a case called Hufsky. It was a random stop at a checkpoint and the court held that, yes, that's an arbitrary detention, but because the idea of the checkpoint was to check licensing, insurance, and sobriety, it was justified under section 1. The other case is Ladouceur, which was a random stop not at a checkpoint but on a routine patrol by a police officer. That was a more individualized choice, which I know is a matter of concern to Mr. Rankin. That one was upheld as well on the grounds that, yes, it was an arbitrary detention, but because the purpose was road safety, it was justified under section 1.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Then you explained to us how, even despite your concerns with sections 9 and 10, it would be saved under section 1, in particular under the Oakes test. In your opinion, given the reality that Canada has one of the worst impaired driving records in comparison to other countries and the fact that there is a fundamental right to safety, are you certain that section 1 would save any challenges that are brought against this law?

6 p.m.

Scholar in Residence, Blake, Cassels & Graydon LLP, As an Individual

Peter Hogg

I am satisfied that it's likely to be the result. Of course, you can't predict the Supreme Court of Canada. They do sometimes disagree with me and then I have to admit that they are right and I am wrong.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

No, no, no.

6 p.m.

Scholar in Residence, Blake, Cassels & Graydon LLP, As an Individual

Peter Hogg

One thing that I will say in favour of the Supreme Court of Canada—I have often criticized them—is they are concerned about road safety. In the cases that have come up on a variety of issues affecting road safety, you do see a concern in the court about road safety. The nine judges are human beings, and like the human beings in this room, they are concerned about road safety. I think they would be anxious to uphold any bona fide measure that was designed to enhance road safety. So I think we get some bias, if you like, from the court in the right direction.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you for that.

Mr. Walker, I have a question for you. I noted that in the written testimony you have provided, in two paragraphs you were referring to a study that I understand was undertaken by the CAA independently, which suggested that young people are under the impression that perhaps driving under the influence will enhance their safety. This is quite disconcerting, so apart from the survey the CAA itself has done, are there any other sources that you can direct us to?

6 p.m.

Chief Strategy Officer, National Office, Canadian Automobile Association

Jeff Walker

It is disconcerting.

To tell you the truth, we haven't seen a lot of other public opinion polling on this, not enough, frankly. We commissioned it ourselves because we see it as a public interest mandate. There would be a lot of value, for example, if maybe the Department of Justice or some others did some more polling to validate and verify that. But I can tell you very clearly that 20% of young people believe they are either as good or better under impairment. It's not all young people, and if I insinuated that, let's make it clear. What it also suggests, and we have a bunch.... If you're interested in looking at the poll, we could share it with you. It shows that a lot of young people strongly believe that alcohol impairment is far more significant as a potential risk than marijuana impairment. It's not even just that there are some who think marijuana is not that big a deal. There is a whole set of considerations about just a basic sense that it's not really that big a deal to smoke a little bit, have an edible, or whatever that might be.

I have not seen other polling, but I'm happy to share with you all the work we've done, and we haven't just done it one time. We've been tracking this issue for four years now because we have known that this is coming.

6 p.m.

President, Families For Justice

Markita Kaulius

Can I make one comment?

6 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Of course. Absolutely.

September 18th, 2017 / 6 p.m.

President, Families For Justice

Markita Kaulius

I've been going out to schools and talking to high school students about impaired driving. One of the questions I ask them during my presentation is how many students have either drunk alcohol or smoked marijuana and gotten into a vehicle or driven themselves. I ask them to give me a show of hands. About 97% of the class put up their hands. Then I usually say to them, “Is there anyone here who does not know you should not drink and drive?” They all know it, but they do it. They still assume, as well, that because it's marijuana, they are not really impaired as with alcohol. Sadly, they are.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Mr. Cooper asked if he could ask a short, pointed question about Ladouceur.

Mr. Cooper, go ahead.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

It's a question for Professor Hogg in regard to Ladouceur.

Of course, in terms of the context of Ladouceur, it was a case of a roving stop in which a police officer asked if the driver's papers were in order, asked for a driver's licence, insurance, etc., and didn't have any suspicion that the driver was in any way acting unlawfully. In that decision, the majority did find a section 9 violation, but it was saved on the basis of section 1. In so finding, Justice Cory and the court stated, in a majority, “Any further, more intrusive procedures could only be undertaken based upon reasonable and probable grounds.”

In the case of mandatory breath testing, it would certainly be much more intrusive to obtain a bodily sample than to simply ask whether the officer can check their driver's licence.

How do you square that statement of the court with the opinion you have reached, which is that this would be upheld under section 1?

6:05 p.m.

Scholar in Residence, Blake, Cassels & Graydon LLP, As an Individual

Peter Hogg

I think Mr. Justice Cory was talking about the present state of the law, not about potential changes to the law, of which this would be a potential change.

I do think—and here I'm following Professor Homel—that it is not particularly intrusive to have a breath test on top of whatever other concerns the police officer might have. It's a rather brief thing. Apparently, the person does not have to get out of the car, and it takes only a couple of minutes, so it's pressing it to say that this is a very extreme measure. It's not an extreme measure at all.

I gather this is done in New Zealand. I'm going back to New Zealand for Christmas, so I hope I get stopped in one of these stops and see exactly how they do it.

On top of that is the overwhelming concern about road safety. We highly regulate drivers. We do it because it's a very unsafe activity, as we all know. It seems to me that this is not a very intrusive measure, and it's one that the evidence suggests may well have good results.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

I would like to thank all the distinguished members of this panel for having contributed to our debate. We really appreciate it.

I will ask the next panel to come up.

We are recessed until the next panel comes up.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

We're going to reconvene the meeting and join our third panel of witnesses.

Again, we apologize to the witnesses. We ran late because the House of Commons ran over after question period today to pay tribute to a late colleague.

We are joined right now by Mr. Greg DelBigio, a director of the Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers, and from British Columbia by video conference, we have Mr. Tom Stamatakis, president of the Canadian Police Association.

Welcome to you both.

We are waiting for our third witness, Mr. Halsor, but in the meantime, we're going to get started.

Mr. Stamatakis, just given the difficulty sometimes of video technology, while we know we have you and you're coming in clear, let's start with you. You have 10 minutes.

6:15 p.m.

Tom Stamatakis President, Canadian Police Association

Honourable members, I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you this evening as you continue your study of Bill C-46.

I note that there are some familiar faces around the table, but for those of you who may not be aware, I'm appearing before you tonight as the president of the Canadian Police Association, an organization that represents more than 60,000 front-line civilian and sworn police professionals serving across Canada.

As I have testified before, I also note that I'm a police officer in the city of Vancouver. I am, however, seconded from the Vancouver Police Department to the Vancouver Police Union as its president. I'm also the president of the British Columbia Police Association, an association of all the municipal police unions in the province of British Columbia.

My opening remarks will be brief. I want to begin to saying that the Canadian Police Association supports Bill C-46, which represents one of the most significant modernizations of our country's impaired driving laws that I can remember.

I know that all members around the table share our goal of getting impaired drivers, whether they are impaired by alcohol or drugs, off our streets. While we may at times differ when it comes to specific tactics, I believe the provisions of this legislation, if enacted, will have a significant and positive impact on our efforts.

I'm sure most of you are aware that impaired driving imposes one of the most significant demands on the resources of almost every Canadian police service. While there's no question we've had success through education in reducing the number of impaired driving incidents, there aren't many officers you could talk to in this country who don't have at least one heartbreaking story about responding to a motor vehicle accident where alcohol or drugs were a factor.

I'm confident in saying that the changes proposed by Bill C-46, specifically those that allow for mandatory roadside testing, will help our officers more effectively reduce the number of those stories, although I do understand that some concerns have been raised regarding civil liberties, our fundamental rights, and the potential for infringement under this regime. I want to say that, in this regard, police officers across the country are already asked and trained to exercise a tremendous amount of discretion every day in the execution of their duties, and that will continue.

While opponents of this mandatory screening have painted a picture where officers will regularly be randomly stopping motorists and demanding breath samples, I can say from a practical standpoint that this is simply impossible to imagine. The familiar holiday checkpoints will remain, but what these new provisions will allow us to do is eliminate many of the inefficiencies that plague impaired driving prosecutions.

As I'm sure this committee is aware, studies, particularly those done by researchers at Simon Fraser University, have shown that under the current regime, a single impaired driving case can take a police officer off the road for up to eight hours. The legislation you're considering today will have a meaningful and positive impact in that regard, particularly by eliminating many of the common defences now used to beat the charges. Most notable are arguments regarding reasonable suspicion and whether or not an officer had grounds to pursue breath testing in the first place.

I should also note very briefly that steps taken in this legislation to eliminate the bolus drinking and intervening drinking defences are very much appreciated by our members. Additional clarity within legislation is always preferable, and while some people will never fully be deterred from drinking and driving, I'm hopeful that explicitly restricting these two common defences that officers hear every day will help in the long run.

As I mentioned, I want to keep my opening remarks brief, as I believe I can help you best by answering any questions you might have about the current state of impaired driving enforcement or how these new changes might impact front-line police personnel in this country.

Again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this evening. I look forward to continuing this discussion.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Mr. Stamatakis.

We're going to Mr. DelBigio.

6:20 p.m.

Greg DelBigio Director, Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers

It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

Very briefly, I practise criminal constitutional law and have done so for the past 25 years. I'll try to bring that perspective to bear.

Certainties will arise from the proposed amendments, and that is that roadside criminal investigations take time for police officers to conduct. If a case proceeds with criminal charges, the preparation of disclosure packages occupies a police officer's time. Although the use of administrative sanctions instead of criminal law is the subject of discussion and debate, administrative procedures, such as the administrative drug prohibitions that are used in B.C., allow an officer to be out on the road more quickly compared to criminal law requirements.

Impaired driving charges, with these amendments or without them, will continue to be defended against. Criminal trials take an officer off the road for even more time. The more criminal trials there are and the more complicated they are, the more court time is needed. That, of course, engages the concerns that have been addressed by the Supreme Court of Canada in Jordan.

A further certainty is that changes in law, whether they are good changes or not, will create uncertainty with respect to the state of the law, and there will be litigation. Roadside stops, investigations, and prosecutions do engage constitutional rights, and the proposed amendments obviously can't change that. The constitutional rights that are engaged arise in three areas.

I'm moving a little off my prepared remarks because I was listening carefully to the eloquent speakers who were here before me.

The first situation is roadside. The context, of course, is that driving is a regulated activity. Safety is important. Roadside detentions tend to be brief, but privacy interests exist, and there are going to be concerns about the lawfulness of the initial detention. There is a risk of bias about an improperly exercised discretion. I wish to be clear in saying that. I do not say that there is a widespread tendency toward improper detentions, but whenever there is an opportunity for detention, there is a risk of bias. Also, at roadside there are going to be the issues with respect to reasonable grounds to suspect versus reasonable grounds to believe, which are section 8 charter concerns.

The fair trial process and the right to make full answer in defence is guaranteed by section 7 of the charter. I'll address some of the issues that the amendments propose.

Then there's the sentencing. There have been discussions before with respect to mandatory minimum sentences, whether they'd be effective in offering deterrence and whether they'd be constitutional.

I predict, unsurprisingly, that the amendments, if made, will bring constitutional challenges that will require court resources. There will be uncertainty as the cases go through the appellate systems in different provinces. That might or might not be a bad thing, but it almost certainly will exist.

The questions that I pose are: Is there a sound evidentiary basis upon which to conclude that the proposed amendments will more effectively deter criminal conduct or will measurably improve road safety? Even if road safety might be improved, do the amendments contain provisions that are constitutionally defective?

I now make the following specific observations with respect to the proposed amendments. The language of “impaired” versus the phrase of “impaired to any degree” I predict will give rise to problems. When I say “problems” all I mean is litigation and the uncertainty that arises from it. “Impaired to any degree”, I suggest, imports an uncertainty or vagueness, and it may amount to no threshold at all.

Evidentiary matters with respect to the courtroom process, the proposal that an evaluating officer's opinion would be admissible without the officer's being qualified as an expert, is first, potentially going to be subject to some form of challenge. Second, it is not necessarily going to eliminate court time or make the process any quicker. Even though an officer's opinion may be admissible, although he or she may not be qualified as an expert, there will be inevitable challenges to the weight of the officer's opinion. If the officer's opinion may be challenged on the basis of weight, it is going to be attacked, much as it would be if it were an expert opinion.

Under the heading of proposed section 320.12, “Recognition and declaration”, are the phrases “an approved instrument produces reliable and accurate readings” and “(d) an evaluation conducted by an evaluating officer is a reliable method of determining whether a person...is impaired”. These, I will simply say, in my mind, are curious provisions. It's hard to know what to make of something that is a statutory recognition and declaration. In any event, evidence that may be used to prove guilt and that has a statutory presumption of reliability will give rise to inevitable questions.

Finally, with respect to this, the proposed provision that the amount of alcohol or drug consumed does not constitute evidence that the analysis of blood was not conducted properly some might regard as interesting. Some might regard it as remarkable that evidence of alcohol or drug consumption might somehow be irrelevant to charges that relate to drug or alcohol impairment. I say that those provisions might well be challenged on section 7 grounds.

A challenge to the manner of proof available to the prosecution, or the defences available to a defence, are going to be subject to very different considerations as to, for example, whether a roadside detention is itself unconstitutional or whether it can be saved by section 1.

My comment with respect to delay in sentencing is that this is a very good provision. I would encourage those who have the power to ensure that treatment, which is referred to, is available in rural and smaller jurisdictions. It tends to be something that is available in the city. It is unfortunate if such provision is not available uniformly across Canada.

In the interest of time, those are my opening remarks.

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Mr. DelBigio.

I've been advised that Mr. Halsor is not able to join us at this time. We're going to proceed with questioning, and we're going to move to Mr. Nicholson.