Evidence of meeting #63 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was alcohol.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patricia Kosseim  Senior General Counsel and Director General, Legal Services, Policy, Research and Technology Analysis Branch, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Yvan Clermont  Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics , Statistics Canada
Samuel Perreault  Analyst, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Daniel Therrien  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Sheri Arsenault  Director, Alberta, Families For Justice
Scott Treasure  President-Elect, Insurance Brokers Association of Canada
Peter Braid  Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Brokers Association of Canada
Douglas Beirness  Senior Policy Advisor, Subject Matter Expert Impaired Driving, Canadian Centre on Substance Use and Addiction
Pascal Lévesque  President, Criminal Law Committee, Barreau du Québec
Benoît Gariépy  Member, Criminal Law Committee, Barreau du Québec
Ana Victoria Aguerre  Lawyer, Secretariat of the Order and Legal Affairs, Barreau du Québec
Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Julie Geoffrion

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Certainly, making something legal as opposed to illegal has to expand the consumption, and obviously, the availability of that. It will be very interesting to see that.

One of the things too, and you make the point, is that it's more difficult to get a conviction for people in the drug-impaired driving area as opposed to alcohol, but hopefully we'll be able to remedy that.

Mr. Therrien, thank you very much for all the work that you do. You made a very interesting point that I am sure others will follow up, which was that the use of the disclosure of this information currently is restricted to the Criminal Code, the Aeronautics Act, or the Railway Safety Act. This bill widens the potential to basically unlimited legislation. I guess one of the things I will ask when the department comes here to answer questions is what other pieces of legislation are necessary. I can understand the three that are covered now. Those only make sense, but I'd like to know from them if they were given any other pieces of legislation, or named them, that might require this information, or whether it is just in general.

3:50 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

We were not given an explanation as to what other statutes would need to be covered. The current law already authorizes disclosure for the purpose of the administration of provincial laws, and there are certain provincial laws that are very closely related, the Highway Traffic Act being a case in point.

Interestingly, the current provision which authorizes disclosure for the administration of provincial laws is not limited to transportation legislation or regulations. I would start from the premise that if these laws, whether federal or provincial, are related to transportation safety, it makes sense. Otherwise, why is this required?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I'm going to ask that question. I appreciate your raising it here.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Those are my questions.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Mr. Nicholson.

Mr. Fraser.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to everyone for being here today and for the presentations you have made.

Mr. Clermont, let me start with you.

You have provided statistics on driving impaired by alcohol and by drugs, but are there statistics specifically on impairment by cannabis? Do you know whether there are statistics on the convictions and the various cases involving that drug specifically?

3:50 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics , Statistics Canada

Yvan Clermont

We can make a distinction using self-reported information from sample surveys. However, police statistics deal only with drugs as a whole. There is no way to distinguish whether cases involve cannabis or another drug like cocaine. We cannot make that distinction.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Medication prescribed by a doctor can also affect one's faculties.

3:50 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics , Statistics Canada

Yvan Clermont

Yes, that is a possibility.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

So I gather that all those substances are in the same category.

Is there any correlation between the conviction rate and the reduction in impaired driving?

3:55 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics , Statistics Canada

Yvan Clermont

That is an excellent question.

We have made no direct link between the clearance rate and the rate of impaired driving. The prevalence of impaired driving cases is influenced by a number of factors. More detailed analysis would allow us to determine the impact of police intervention, but we have not done a study of that kind.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

I know that statistics by province exist, but are there also statistics that compare rural and urban areas? Is there a difference between conviction rates or frequency between the communities of those two types? I know that, yesterday, we heard testimony that the frequency is higher in rural areas.

3:55 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics , Statistics Canada

Yvan Clermont

We have statistics of that kind and we can send them to the committee analysts.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Can you do that, please?

3:55 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics , Statistics Canada

Yvan Clermont

For example, they show the differences between metropolitan census areas and the others.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Thank you.

You talk about zero tolerance being one of the reasons there is a rate of sharp decline, especially amongst youth in the provinces that have implemented administrative zero tolerance.

Do you know if that's also coupled with education programs in those provinces and other measures that would assist and perhaps be part of the reason why we see a reduction in the incidence of impaired driving amongst youth?

3:55 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics , Statistics Canada

Yvan Clermont

This is an observation, true, that we made, looking at where there was a sharp decline in cases of impaired driving by province. It was where there was a prevention campaign and also a zero tolerance program being implemented that we noticed the biggest decline. We could only make the association. We cannot say whether it is because of the prevention campaign, or because of the zero tolerance about novice drivers or youth. There is a coincidence, but we cannot disentangle for sure if it's related to either one.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

I am assuming, based on the previous answer you gave me about tracking cannabis specifically, that there may not be additional statistics on mixed alcohol and drug use, or tracking of people who are charged because they are impaired from consuming both products.

3:55 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics , Statistics Canada

Yvan Clermont

You're right. It is a difficult thing to do because, when the police are coming into contact with a person who could have been intoxicated by both alcohol and drugs, they will be reporting by the substance they think is impacting the impairedness of the driving of the individual the most. There is a likelihood that many of these cases will be reported as alcohol-impaired. That's a police practice that they are using. It might be related because it's easier to prove than drug-related impaired driving.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Monsieur Therrien, maybe this falls outside of what you're able to comment on, but yesterday in the testimony we talked about the difference between a checkpoint for mandatory alcohol screening, like what we would see around the holidays, for example, and any traffic stop.

Are there privacy concerns that you would like to comment on as a result of the difference between those two ways of doing mandatory alcohol screening?

3:55 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

To the extent that the bill before you authorizes roadside testing without suspicion, and there is a link to the methods you just mentioned, this certainly raises privacy issues. In other words, submitting someone to roadside testing without any grounds for suspicion clearly does raise privacy issues. The question then becomes, is it necessary to achieve the compelling state objective to do that, and is it proportional?

We've seen the arguments made by the government in their charter assessment, and although we might quibble on some of the details, we think, on the whole, that the answers given to these questions are appropriate.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Mr. Stetski, go ahead.

4 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you.

Thank you for being here today.

My riding of Kootenay—Columbia is located in southeastern British Columbia, and my constituents are very interested in and concerned about both Bill C-45, trying to ensure that economic opportunities continue for small business, and Bill C-46, in terms of keeping us all safe.

I would start with a question for Mr. Therrien. In the material prepared by the committee, you are specifically mentioned as having raised concerns regarding random breath testing, provisions from Bill C-226, particularly concerning racial bias in the application of this law.

What sorts of conditions could you recommend to the committee to prevent arbitrariness and racial profiling in random breath testing?

4 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

We did raise these issues with respect to the private member's bill that was before Parliament last year, but our focus, of course, is primarily privacy, according to the grid of analysis that I've just outlined. Is the stated objective compelling? We think it is. Are these measures, including automatic roadside testing without grounds, necessary and proportional? We think that on the whole the government has made a reasonable case for the necessity and the proportionality of that particular measure.

There's no question that there is a risk that in the implementation of these provisions, if they are adopted, they will be implemented in a way that would disproportionately affect certain minority groups or other groups. It's a risk. The question I would put to you is whether it is a risk that is sufficient to address in the Criminal Code federally, or is that something that should be addressed either in provincial laws or provincial or municipal practices as to how the Criminal Code is actually being implemented?

For instance—and I'll just conclude on this point—there was a police practice in Toronto called “carding”, whereby people were stopped by police officers randomly, and allegedly arbitrarily, with a view to collecting information about them and then taking adverse measures against them. That practice was criticized by a number of people—provincial privacy commissioners—and the Ontario government took action in issuing certain directives. Also, a bill is before the Ontario legislature.

That's a long answer to say, yes, there is a risk of discrimination. Is the best way to address this to have provisions in the Criminal Code to dictate how the law will be administered locally? Or should we rely on provincial and municipal authorities to do the right thing to ensure the law is administered properly?

4 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Clermont, slide 11 shows how it takes twice as long to deal with drug cases in the courts than it does alcohol-related cases. Why is that? Is that related to the lack of oral fluid testing? Do you know why?

4 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics , Statistics Canada

Yvan Clermont

In the survey, we don't ask. This is based on administrative data. We look at the date of the initiation of each case in front of the tribunals. We don't have detailed information about the reasons why it took so long. We only know that it takes that long. It takes 245 days. Half of the cases would take that, less or more than 245 days, which is more than twice the time it takes for alcohol-related cases.