Evidence of meeting #66 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was marijuana.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Felix Comeau  Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Alcohol Countermeasure Systems Corp.
Gérald Gauthier  Vice-President, Railway Association of Canada
Simon-Pierre Paquette  Labour and Employment Counsel, Railway Association of Canada
Savannah Gentile  Director, Advocacy and Legal Issues, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Abe Verghis  Supervisor, Regulatory Affairs, Alcohol Countermeasure Systems Corp.
Kathy Thompson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Community Safety and Countering Crime Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Kevin Brosseau  Deputy Commissioner, Contract and Aboriginal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Patrick Leclerc  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Urban Transit Association
Megan MacRae  Executive Director, Human Resources, Toronto Transit Commission
Brian Leck  Head of Legal and General Counsel, Legal Department, Toronto Transit Commission
Rachel Huggins  Manager, Policy and Development, Serious and Organized Crime Strategies Division, Community Safety and Countering Crime Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Greg Yost  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Jan Ramaekers  Professor, Maastricht University
Randy Goossen  Psychiatrist, As an Individual
Diane Kelsall  Editor-in-Chief, Canadian Medical Association Journal
Richard Compton  Director, Office of Behavioral Safety Research, U.S. Department of Transportation, International Council on Alcohol, Drugs and Traffic Safety
Chris Halsor  Founder and Principal, Understanding Legal Marijuana

September 27th, 2017 / 3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Ladies and gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure to call to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, as we continue our study of Bill C-46.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome all of these important groups testifying before us today.

From the Alcohol Countermeasure Systems Corporation, we have Mr. Felix J.E. Comeau, chairman and chief executive officer. Welcome, Mr. Comeau. We also have Mr. Abe Verghis, supervisor, regulatory affairs. Welcome, Mr. Verghis.

Joining us from the Railway Association of Canada are Gérald Gauthier, vice-president, and Simon-Pierre Paquette, labour and employment counsel.

Welcome, Mr. Gauthier and Mr. Paquette.

From the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies, we have Savannah Gentile, director, advocacy and legal issues. Welcome, Ms. Gentile.

We are going to start right away with testimony. We will move to Monsieur Comeau and Mr. Verghis.

3:35 p.m.

Felix Comeau Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Alcohol Countermeasure Systems Corp.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for the opportunity to present some information to the committee. I applaud the committee and the work of the government in the changes being made with Bill C-46.

This brings up three areas of comment. The first is related to proposed subsection 320.27(1), which in part requires “reasonable grounds” in order to require a drug test. The test for reasonable grounds has had its day in court for many years for alcohol testing, since the mid-seventies. Of course, the courts are filled with cases where this comes forward. I would recommend, in the case of proposed subsection 320.27(1), that instead, proposed subsection 320.27(2) be expanded to include mandatory drug screening through the use of oral fluid screening devices. There is a 10-year history of this type of case law in Australia, with a very effective program countrywide.

The second thing I wish to draw your attention to is proposed paragraph 320.28(2)(b), which requires “samples of blood” for subsequent analysis in the case of drugs of use. Once again, if one draws upon the information historically and throughout the world, samples of saliva are well known. In fact, there is very good data to support the use of saliva samples, oral fluid, instead of blood. It's easy and it's reliable.

We have a chart in the presentation, which will be shown later on, that illustrates the work of Drs. Huestis and Cone from 2004. It has been replicated many times, and shows that oral fluid for THC mimics the concentration of that drug compound in blood from a few minutes after smoking. The oral contamination of the cannabis is removed from the oral cavity quickly, and one sees a track of oral THC with blood. The same occurs very well with many other drugs, but THC was of interest.

The third issue is with regard to proposed paragraph 320.28(4)(a), which enables the collection of a biological sample of “oral fluid or urine”. I would propose that “urine” be struck from this part of the bill, because urine is useful in post-mortem cases. We wish to deal with living drivers. Urine is a collection of what has been—past tense. The drug that you're interested in could have been there from days, weeks, or even months ago. It has not very good evidential value for a criminal or even a provincial case. Again, I would recommend that “urine” be removed there.

As a background to these statements, particularly for THC, we know that the drug recognition experts have been involved in the United States, and more recently in Canada, with the apprehension and prosecution of drug-impaired drivers, whereas in many other places in the world, notably in Europe and Australia, the use of oral fluids has been the predominant choice. If we look at, in the case of THC, the time course of occurrence, we see that within minutes of smoking a joint, or a cigarette containing a modest amount of cannabis, one can peak well into 140 to 150 nanograms per millilitre of THC in the blood. Then you'll see the time course where it drops to less than 20% of its peak within an hour. Within two or three hours, there's relatively little left in the body to be detected. So if one is relying solely on field sobriety tests and the work of DREs, one is limiting the opportunity to collect evidence at the roadside.

Again, in Europe and in Australia, which have been doing this for 10 years or more, oral fluid is used, and the apprehension of drugged drivers is very predominant.

We can look, further, at the work of another researcher. This is in the United States, where one is looking at the frequency of occurrence of THC in blood samples collected after a DRE examination. One can see that fully 70% of the samples have little evidentiary value. They're below five micrograms per litre, post-collection. This is a blood sample collected after a DRE examination. It's very difficult.

If one is reviewing the legislation currently with the inclusion of drugs with alcohol, one would like to use what has been gained over the past 50 years with breath alcohol testing in Canada. Alcohol is very different from THC and vice versa. Alcohol is water soluble. It distributes through the body. Its effects are proportional to the concentration of alcohol.

THC is not that way. THC is fat soluble. It attaches to the lipid molecules in the body and is resident in the brain for a longer period of time than its concentration in the blood. One has to be quick about determining the drug-impaired driving at the roadside, collect a sample for evidentiary value, and then move onwards.

As for the collection of oral fluid, as I mentioned, it's very simple. The devices are well known. It's as simple as a kit such as this. To collect a sample, that's it. A simple swab of the tongue, and it's done. You press the button, and the test starts. The results are known in five minutes. That's an oral fluid test.

For confirmatory testing, there are commercially available kits on the market being used extensively in countries such as Australia, which use oral fluid as the secondary sample for evidentiary value. It's collection is as simple as a sucker. Put it in the person's mouth. Hold it there for a few minutes. The end turns blue. You have your sample. You take it and put it in a vial, wrap it, mark it for evidential value, and there you are. It's a simple procedure to use oral fluid.

My recommendations are that we use mandatory alcohol and drug screening at the roadside; that we concentrate on the use of oral fluids in addition to blood, because blood is already in the Criminal Code for alcohol offences; that we don't limit the police officers at the roadside with the requirement of reasonable suspicion, which we know is going to be problematic in the courts.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much for your testimony. It's very helpful.

We will move to the presentation of the Railway Association of Canada.

Mr. Gauthier, the floor is yours.

3:40 p.m.

Gérald Gauthier Vice-President, Railway Association of Canada

Thank you.

Good afternoon, everyone.

I am the vice-president of the Railway Association of Canada, which represents more than 50 freight and passenger rail operators, consisting of six class I rail carriers, 40 local and regional railways, as well as many passenger and commuter rail operators including VIA Rail, GO Transit, and tourist railways. Some of our passenger members are also members of the Canadian Urban Transit Association, which will appear before you later today.

With me is Mr. Simon-Pierre Paquette, labour and employment counsel at CN, Canada's largest railway. We come before you regarding a subject on which all can agree: the importance of working together to maintain safe rail operations.

In its November 30, 2016, final report, the task force on the legalization of cannabis highlighted the importance of addressing the safety implications of workplace impairment arising from the consumption of marijuana in safety sensitive settings such as transportation; hence the bill you are studying today.

Freight railways carry all the goods that sustain Canada's economy and its people, including many dangerous goods, such as gasoline, diesel fuel, liquefied natural gas, butane, anhydrous ammonia, ammonium nitrate, chlorine, and hydrochloric acid. We also transport military equipment and munitions for the Canadian Armed Forces.

Canada's rail network operates every day, year-round, through all our major population and economic centres and goes over some 30,000 federal and provincial road crossings as well as environmentally sensitive areas such as national parks. The movement of goods over rail requires strict adherence to the Railway Safety Act to minimize risk for the public, for the employees, for the environment, and for private and public property.

Our sector employs approximately 30,000 people, many of whom hold safety-critical positions—mainly anyone directly engaged in the operation of trains, in mainline or yard service, or in rail traffic control.

Canada's railways are committed to running the safest rail network possible. A key part of this is ensuring that railway employees are fit to work. We feel it is imperative that some safety concerns be addressed concurrently with plans to legalize marijuana.

I am now turning to Simon-Pierre to address the suggestions we have to mitigate the risks from increased accidents following the legalization of cannabis.

3:45 p.m.

Simon-Pierre Paquette Labour and Employment Counsel, Railway Association of Canada

Marijuana diminishes vigilance, concentration, depth perception, and the ability to perform automated tasks. It slows reaction time, and delayed reactions can occur over prolonged periods. These are just a few of its deleterious effects, which pose significant safety risks and increase the risk of injury to users and those around them in a live environment like a rail yard.

Legalizing marijuana will normalize its consumption, increase its availability, and provide greater opportunities for people to consume it. As an industry, we have no interest in regulating what people do on their own time, but as employers we have an obligation to ensure employees are fit to work and not impaired by any substance, legal or not, that may pose a risk to safe operations.

There is no legislation at this time mandating drug or alcohol testing for any position in Canada's transportation industry. This is left to individual railways, whose efforts are frequently subject to legal challenges. This creates an uneven patchwork across the industry, which is detrimental to safety.

Canada's overall approach to the prevention of workplace impairment in safety sensitive environments is reactive instead of proactive. For example, employees showing signs of impairment can be tested for reasonable cause, but this depends on pure observation, and drugs frequently provide few, and sometimes no, visible signs of impairment detectable before an accident happens. Now, employees can be tested in post-accident settings, to be sure, but this means that other screening methods have failed and that safety was seriously compromised.

In rail operations this can entail very serious consequences, which I don't think need to be overstated, for employees themselves, their co-workers, the public, and the environment. Marijuana is the drug most frequently found in employees who fail post-accident tests.

We are pleased that this bill proposes strengthening the Criminal Code by making it an offence to operate rail equipment while exceeding certain blood drug concentrations. However, while this may punish the offender, it remains a reactive measure that will not prevent an accident from occurring. In a context where marijuana is legalized, greater preventive focus is required.

Drug tests, including random tests, are required by law in the United States. The U.S. Department of Transportation considers random testing an effective deterrent, and indeed U.S. law lists deterrence as the purpose of random testing. In our industry's experience, it is very effective.

Both Canadian class I railways and some of the RAC's other members operate on both sides of the Canada-U.S. border. Canadian courts have long accepted that Canadian employees can validly be subject to U.S. random testing rules when they cross into the United States. The Supreme Court of Canada has likewise accepted that random testing can be permissible in circumstances posing enhanced risks to safety.

This bill acknowledges the need for preventive measures, notably by authorizing mandatory screenings at roadside stops. This is the right time to harmonize the Canadian and U.S. approaches to rail safety by adopting shared preventive screening standards. The legal framework is there, and Parliament's leadership is needed to establish a consistent, reliable regulatory framework for Canada's transportation sector, including establishing a per se limit for deemed impairment, approving a reliable instant-reading testing device to screen for drug impairment, and mandating the preventive monitoring of employees' fitness for duty, notably through random testing.

Thank you, and we will be pleased to answer to the best of our knowledge in either official language any questions you may have.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We'll move to the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies.

Ms. Gentile.

3:45 p.m.

Savannah Gentile Director, Advocacy and Legal Issues, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies

My name is Savannah. I'm the director of advocacy and legal issues at the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies, CAEFS.

I want to thank you first of all for accommodating our last-minute switch. Our president, Diana Majury, sends her regrets that she could not attend.

Our concerns are mostly general in nature. I want to start with the lack of resources available for those who are struggling with mental health and addiction issues. Our concern is that coming out with a bill that creates harsher punishments and penalties will capture those who are struggling with mental health and addiction, and it is our position that prison is never a useful response to drug-related crimes. It is an intervention that comes too late and fails to treat the source of the problem.

We're further concerned about access to justice. CAEFS is concerned that Bill C-46 will disproportionately impact members of racialized and marginalized groups, who are more likely to be traffic stopped, to be charged, and to receive convictions and harsher penalties. And this is if they don't plead out in the first place.

We are further concerned that a bill of this nature will lead to an increase in the criminalization of our youth. It is our position that more resources need to be diverted to communities to address and better equip them to educate and to heal.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much for that very succinct presentation.

We will now move to questions and start with Mr. Nicholson.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you very much and thank you to our guests here for your insight.

I'll start with you, Ms. Gentile.

You're worried about youth and impairment charges and everything else. Are you supportive of the government's attempt to legalize marijuana?

3:50 p.m.

Director, Advocacy and Legal Issues, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies

Savannah Gentile

I don't necessarily take a position on supporting or not supporting the legalization. My main concern is with educating youth and educating communities on the potential impacts of impaired driving under the influence of marijuana.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Do you expect an increase in impaired driving with the legalization of marijuana?

3:50 p.m.

Director, Advocacy and Legal Issues, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies

Savannah Gentile

I can't really speculate on that. I've read statistics cited by the ministers who have stated that it could lead to an increase. I think that education is the best method to combat that impact.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you very much.

Mr. Comeau, you said it's not only blood that you can test. You gave some examples. How about sweat? Would you have a problem with testing a person's sweat?

3:50 p.m.

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Alcohol Countermeasure Systems Corp.

Felix Comeau

Sweat is used usually in an industrial safety workplace situation. It's a collection over time and is really looking for the presence of one or more drugs that may be prohibited in the workplace. It's not typically used for any enforcement in drug driving cases.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Fair enough.

3:50 p.m.

Abe Verghis Supervisor, Regulatory Affairs, Alcohol Countermeasure Systems Corp.

I want to answer that one. Sweat and hair are used for long-term use. If you're looking for the presence of impairment you want to look for something that's immediate, which is saliva or blood, so we're looking only for saliva and blood. Sweat, hair, urine are all long-term uses.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It's interesting. We've heard slightly different testimony with respect to sweat, but that's very interesting. I appreciate getting that on the record.

Mr. Gauthier and Mr. Paquette, you're concerned about workplace safety, and you did mention one of the cases of the Supreme Court of Canada that said that if you cross into the United States you're going to be tested.

If I remember the Supreme Court of Canada's decision, it was because that was in compliance with American law. If you enter the United States, you have to comply with the law. I don't know if it addressed the whole situation with respect to an individual's rights or freedoms because, if you do this in Canada, I think it's mandatory testing that you could demand of anybody who is an employee.

Do you think there might be some issues related to that person's liberty and ability to act in a free way?

3:50 p.m.

Labour and Employment Counsel, Railway Association of Canada

Simon-Pierre Paquette

I submit to you that the potential impact of that person being present and impaired in a rail yard would itself outweigh any other considerations that would be brought.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Fair enough. There are some people, though, who are quite concerned about police officers doing mandatory testing. You heard Ms. Gentile saying that it's possible that people from various ethnic or racial groups could be targeted.

Do you have any concerns in that area?

3:50 p.m.

Labour and Employment Counsel, Railway Association of Canada

Simon-Pierre Paquette

The reason why I'm here and the reason why this is a concern to CN, in particular, and to railways in general, is not to do with criminalizing anything. It's making sure that employees, regardless of what they do in their own time, when they present themselves to work they are fit to work and they're fit to do so safely.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You're not taking any position with respect to the legalization of marijuana.

3:50 p.m.

Labour and Employment Counsel, Railway Association of Canada

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Fair enough.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much, Mr. Nicholson.

We will now go to Mr. McKinnon.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Thank you, Chair.

I'll start with Mr. Comeau. Could you show us those kits for testing again?