Justice Committee on Nov. 29th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I have two questions I would like to ask Ms. Bielecka.

First, you made a conscious decision not to offer counselling services automatically during trial the way Alberta did. You said that you had to balance legal concerns with the potential mental issues that jurors face. While being excused from a jury is available in some jurisdictions, that's a slightly different issue. Can you talk to us about how you came to that decision, how you balanced the potential influence that a counsellor might have on a juror? Can you give us some issues that might arise related to counselling during trial? Describe for us the potential impact on jurors and why Ontario came to its decision.

[Julia Bielecka]

We understood that we weren't in a position to make a decision, on behalf of all jurors and judicial officials, that everyone on the jury panel could access counselling during the course of a trial. We understood that anything that happens in the courtroom is up to the discretion of the judge. We felt it was best to leave that decision with the judge. Judicial officials are aware that jurors can request to be excused or to receive special consideration on any number of grounds, and this is just one of the things they may need as they go through the process. That was the reason we chose to go that route.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I have a small supplementary on that. You can probably only speak for yourself because you probably haven't even considered it in the ministry, but would you support an exception that would allow jurors to discuss with a mental health counsellor the deliberations of a trial that, based on the Australian model, they currently would be precluded from discussing?

[Julia Bielecka]

That's a difficult question. I'm not sure if I'm in a position to answer that. Would I support the exclusion?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Certain jurors have come forward, recounted their experiences, and talked about the difficulties they have, even post-trial and post-counselling, in being able to share some of the details of what occurred that caused the emotional problems that they have suffered from. Given that Australia had it and given that it seems the Alberta 2009 study recommended it, I was just wondering if Ontario had any position, or you have any personal position, based on your knowledge.

[Julia Bielecka]

I don't have a personal position. I think probably that question is best answered by a legal professional.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Fair enough.

I have one last question about bilingualism. You said these services are available in both languages. How do you ensure that whoever's calling has 24-7 access to counselling services in Ontario in French?

[Julia Bielecka]

Claude, if you could answer that one, that would be lovely.

[Claude Bourque]

Absolutely. When calling in to the line, there is the choice of French or English, and so the caller is then able to speak in the language of their preference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

You've staffed it so that there are bilingual people answering that phone 24-7?

[Claude Bourque]

Absolutely, and I would say that there are staff speaking a number of other languages there as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Are the counsellors across Ontario, even in small communities, able to provide that counselling service in French?

[Claude Bourque]

At this point, we are able to deliver the support as required. I think that the beauty of our net of counsellors is that if there's a need to bring in other counsellors speaking other languages, we're able to do that, but currently we're staffed to be able to support both French and English, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thanks very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Liepert.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

If you dealt with this earlier, I apologize, but do you have a budget for this program for this year?

[Julia Bielecka]

The program is completely funded at no additional cost to our ministry. It's within our current financial allocation.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

But do you have an internal estimate of what this program would cost? Maybe a better way to phrase it would be, from Morneau Shepell's standpoint, is it on a charge-per-usage basis, or is it a blanket contract? How does it work?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Mr. Bourque, did you hear the question?

[Claude Bourque]

Could you repeat the question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

The question from Mr. Liepert was how Morneau Shepell was paid by Ontario. Is it on a per incident basis or a per hour basis? What is the total cost per year to Ontario from Morneau Shepell for providing this service? That's what he asked.

[Claude Bourque]

Thank you.

Similar to the Alberta program, the cost is on an hourly basis.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

You are saying that whatever demand there is for the services, you have an arrangement with Morneau Shepell that the services are provided and then billed back.

[Claude Bourque]

That is correct. It's on a fee-for-service basis so that the hours that are used will then allow that to move, yes.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I think it would be helpful if we had an idea of what this costs on an annual basis, because if we are going to come forward with a recommendation for standards, it would be helpful to have an idea of the costs the provinces are going to have to incur. I'm sure that in the scheme of things it's not very much, but if there was any way that we could get an estimate, it would be helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Let me just ask this. In Alberta, I think they said it was $120 an hour. I can't remember; it was something like that.