Evidence of meeting #81 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was jurors.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
You literally have someone's life in your hands. Your decision is going to have profound consequences for that person.
4:40 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, in our case, she was already deceased, but her family and even some of the correctional guards.... I felt for some of those guards who were on the stand, because they had a relationship with her. I'm sure they were watching it when we were in the courtrooms, as it was webcast.
I don't think I would be able to say how much or put a dollar figure on it, but I don't think that zero dollars for the first 10 days is okay.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Dr. Chopra, if I can continue with you, on an earlier day we received testimony from the Province of Ontario's juror support program. They gave some figures showing that in one year, only 24 of 7,000 jurors took advantage of the counselling sessions. I think your research has found that two-thirds of jurors have experienced jury stress and one-third have had stress reactions comparable to those experienced by individuals with PTSD.
How do you explain the very low turnout in Ontario's program, and what do you think they can be doing more of? If we're only getting 24 of 7,000 jurors, how can we make sure that more jurors take advantage of these programs?
4:40 p.m.
Chopra Koonan Litigation Consulting, As an Individual
I think there is a stigma associated with seeking mental health advice and counselling. I think one way to increase the number of people using these resources is to normalize the response from the beginning by saying, “This could very well happen to you, and there are resources in this information pack. This is normal. We give this to all jurors. There's nothing wrong with you personally if you're having this reaction.” I think that sometimes jurors will have these reactions and not associate them as having to do with the trial and as meaning they need to seek mental health services for them.
I think normalizing it by talking about it early and handing every juror an exit sheet that has.... Some people don't want to do one-on-one mental health counselling. I also know jurors who have been in debriefing sessions with the group, but part of the problem is the group. It was the other jurors they were having issues with, so they didn't want to participate in that particular process. I think having multiple levels of support, saying, “Okay, maybe you don't want to talk to this....”
Again, this is touchy, because it goes back to section 649. There are some people who'd probably be more comfortable talking about it with a spiritual leader or with family members and who wouldn't want to talk about it with a court-appointed mental health counsellor. We all deal with stress in different ways, and not everyone who's experiencing these symptoms knows they need mental health support and feels comfortable seeking it.
I think providing a wide variety of resources and normalizing the response so jurors can learn to recognize it in themselves when they see it could increase attendance or compliance with the programs.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
I saw you nodding in agreement with....
Okay, I'll save it for the next round.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
You're way over. Save it for the next round.
Mr. Ehsassi is next.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I, in turn, want to thank everyone. It was incredibly educational and very helpful to me personally. Thank you very much.
The first question I have is for Ms. De Moura.
You did an incredible job explaining to us all the stress that you endured, both mental and physical. I know it was a one-year trial. How far in were you when you recognized that you were going through a lot of pressure?
4:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I had a couple of nightmares fairly early on. Toward the end, I remember standing in my front hall getting ready to leave, and I literally just fell over. It was like, “Oh, that's different. I don't understand what's going on. That's fine. I'll just continue about my day going to court.”
I was walking along, about to enter the courtroom, and same thing happened. I just sort of lost my balance. I walked into the little jury room, and the foreman looked at me and said, “What's wrong?”
I didn't realize that I looked different. I just thought this was a regular day and just some balance issues, let's say. She said, “What's wrong?” and I said, “Oh, you could tell?” “Yes, something's not right.” That's the day we all let it all out. The five of us had a discussion. One lady actually said that she had no problems, that she didn't lose a wink of sleep. We had some counsellors in. We had a little chat.
The next day that same woman texted me from her minivan to tell me how she broke down crying in her minivan. She didn't realize that all of the stress was compounding and having an effect until one day we just let it all out.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you for that.
I have several questions for Dr. Chopra.
One of the things I wasn't aware of is how stressful other jurors can make it for you. That's something I saw in your presentation. What are the policy implications of that, if we are to learn anything from that?
4:45 p.m.
Chopra Koonan Litigation Consulting, As an Individual
I think it's twofold.
First, what other jurors say or do is part of the deliberations. It's part of what jurors are precluded from speaking about under section 649, even with the people doing the debriefing, so I think that's the policy implication there: changing the ban on the discussion of deliberations can help alleviate the stress associated with problematic jurors.
The other goes back to the jury selection process and finding out a little more about jurors. Mostly what we currently know is just what they look like and their names. It could be more along the line of the federal model in the United States, which doesn't involve extensive questioning. It's typically 15 minutes of questioning done by a judge. A brief description of the case is given, and then it's anything about your background or life experiences that you think could impact you if you were a juror in this case. It's not an open season, getting rid of everyone who has some sensitivities; it's just finding out if there are personal life experiences that would make you not the right juror for this case, but perhaps a fine juror for another case. That would be a recommendation.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you for that. You actually answered two questions that I had.
Just revisiting the issue of resilience and leaving aside, for the time being, whether that's a desirable thing or not, is it possible to actually identify resilient people?
4:45 p.m.
Chopra Koonan Litigation Consulting, As an Individual
Not necessarily. I think it's possible to identify people who, because of the way they talk about their experiences, generally give you a sense of whether or not they are past it and have moved on, versus if they are clearly expressing some emotion still attached to describing the experience. That said, I've also seen jurors who describe a horrific experience in their past and say they are completely fine with it, but when they get on the jury, that ends up not being the case.
I think it's very difficult to judge resiliency. There are cues based on how the person talks about the experience, but I think it is just another piece of information that the lawyers and the judge can take into consideration when making the jury selection decision. It also gives the juror an opportunity to ask himself or herself if this is the right case for them, because, again, the more information going into it, the better. We're often good judges of ourselves—not always, but often—and of whether we're someone who could handle it.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Zaborowski, you mentioned the need for a national juror office. First of all, could you elaborate on what that would entail? Second, perhaps you could inform us of any other precedent you may know of in another jurisdiction where they have done something of this nature.
4:50 p.m.
As an Individual
As I understand the federal guidelines or recommendations that will come from this study, they are recommendations, and the provinces will choose how they will implement them. There has been some discussion in prior meetings about costing for counselling and for other services, so it's similar to the Mental Health Commission of Canada, which has laid out standards that have subsequently been administered by the different provinces, such as the changes to the labour act and the WSIB act here in Ontario. I could see how the standards would inform and create structure for each of the provinces, but also create a bureaucracy that will outlive all of us. Looking back 30 years from now, we could see how healthy our jurors are as a consequence of regular updates, regular information, but also the bureaucracy that's outlived the current proceedings today.
As for examples, I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I do know there are institutions out there that have lived on for a very long time because of the way they've been structured. I would look to those to inform the structure of this national office. It could be housed, perhaps, within the Mental Health Commission of Canada, which has been doing well for quite a while. It could be housed within the Department of Justice.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you very much.
Now we'll go to shorter questions.
We'll start with Mr. Liepert, and then Mr. McKinnon, Mr. MacGregor, and Ms. Khalid.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
Again, thank you all. This has been quite an eye-opening experience for a whole bunch of us.
We talk a lot about the counselling afterward, but how valuable would it be if jurors in cases that were more significant, let's say, were surveyed by someone who was appointed by the court in the same way you've done with some jurors at large? If we talk to these people after they've served on the jury, maybe we would learn something from it. Is that something that could be recommended? I ask you the question because you did the survey, but maybe others would have the same kind of comment.
4:50 p.m.
Chopra Koonan Litigation Consulting, As an Individual
I think that's a great idea. It could be a short, scaled survey ranking things from 1 to 5—you know, “applies to me”, “doesn't apply to me”—and a series of yes-or-no questions. I think it would be valuable for two reasons. One is that we could learn about this individual juror, but then we could also start getting some national data on this problem and how widespread it is. Is it more prevalent in certain types of trials or in certain jurisdictions where you want to focus your resources? I think that's a fantastic idea.
It would be voluntary. The jurors wouldn't have to do it, but I think it could be part of the post-trial debriefing with the judge, when they just say, “If you're interested, we're collecting some data. Complete this survey.” I think that's a great idea.
4:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Mr. Liepert, I would like to add that we've talked about resilience here today, and Dr. Baillie, in a previous hearing, talked about natural resilience.
As we've heard about severe post-traumatic stress that jurors have had, we haven't talked about jurors who have managed to move on in their lives after spending a lot of time. For me, the question is whether there are natural resiliences found within all of us that have, in some way, assisted and protected jurors, and what those features are, so that they can be naturally encouraged. In a pretrial information package, you're reminded you have this resource, but it would also build on and sort of instruct all jurors before they head into jury duty.
That would be a fascinating question that I would ask. What are that natural resiliences that we all have to manage this kind of—
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
Just briefly, I think I'm referring more to a survey that might be a little further down the road than just in the room when they're done.
4:55 p.m.
Chopra Koonan Litigation Consulting, As an Individual
That's what I was going to clarify, because it takes a while for the symptoms to manifest themselves.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
I'm not sure who would manage that, but it seems to me that if we really want to ensure that we're doing the right thing, we should talk to the folks who have experienced these situations.