Sure.
Evidence of meeting #84 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was jurors.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #84 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was jurors.
A video is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Professor of Psychology, Courtesy Professor of Law, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, As an Individual
Sure.
February 6th, 2018 / 5 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
I would certainly appreciate that.
I just pass on a comment to you, Mr. Dore, as well.
I've been in justice for quite some time over the years. One of the things that was very helpful in updating the legislation, the Criminal Code, in Canada was to have a look at what Australia did. You have a federal system, the same type of law system we have; and you have many of the challenges here. I found it very interesting to hear your testimony today. It sounds to me like you're ahead of us in many respects with respect to jurors, and the support for them. I want you to know that's very much appreciated, so thank you for that.
To you, Dr. Donaldson, you indicated there's a certain amount of stress. You pointed out one case where the jurors or somebody helped pay somebody's.... In Minnesota, don't they get any stipend at all for jury service?
5 p.m.
Vice-President, American Society of Trial Consultants
There's stipend. I think at that time it was maybe $30 a day or $40 a day. The most we see in the United States is about $40 a day. Large companies usually pay their employees. Government workers usually are paid for jury service. It's people who work at smaller businesses. I think it's having under 10 employees, self-employed people. If I had my way, if I were queen of the world, jurors would be paid minimum wage for their services, for those who are not compensated by their employers.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
I think basically you eliminate sometimes maybe a whole class of people—
5 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
—who are not financially well off or on minimum wage, or less than minimum wage, or unemployed. Basically, you shut them out of the system of serving their state or their country.
5 p.m.
Vice-President, American Society of Trial Consultants
If it's a trial of more than a few days or a week, those people do get shut out, but they can usually manage for a short trial. I have had numerous long trials in my career and those jurors are definitely shut out. In fact, we will sometimes call for a special pool of 500 jurors in order to sit a panel of eight, with three alternates; and we're lucky to sometimes seat a panel out of those who were summoned because only about 200 show up.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Mr. Dore, we have heard some testimony during our study so far about different examples where jurors were not necessarily comfortable in their courtroom setting or arriving at the courthouse or whatever during the trial. It's been suggested that it helps to de-stress, or as best as can be done to minimize a stressful situation. If, for example, different parking arrangements are made so that the jurors aren't arriving at the courthouse at the same time as family members of either the victim or the accused in a criminal trial, or if they have their own entrance to the courthouse....
I'm wondering if you could give some examples about what is being done in the state of Victoria to try to minimize stress in the courtroom situations for the jurors themselves.
5 p.m.
Juries Commissioner, Court Services Victoria
I can, as long as we remember there are 14 districts. For instance, I'm sitting in Melbourne, in a purpose-built building that was commissioned in 2002, and it is a perfect environment for jurors. As you suggest, they have a separate entrance. There's a lounge. They're given security cards as employees, so they can get in the building, clear security, get on a lift, go up to the floor they're required to go to, and enter the deliberation room they're required to go to. It's well set out.
At the other end of the spectrum, we have courthouses that were built at the turn of the last century, where we don't even have a jury pool room. The pool will gather under a tree and then be brought into the courtroom, so there are varying degrees.
We're currently in Shepparton, which is a couple of hours out of Melbourne. It's a regional court. The government has invested around $70 million to build a new multi-purpose courthouse that will have two trial courts, so there are two courtrooms that could cater for jury trials. I sit on that steering committee, and a lot of thought and effort has gone into building a purpose-built environment for jurors.
I'll just make a couple of comments, if I may, on what previous people have said. Our judges, certainly on longer trials, will build in breaks, and I just have to stress again that we have a front-end system whereby the personal hardship issues never get into a courtroom.
The third thing I'll say is—and it doesn't matter if you're the CEO of BHP or not—your employer is obliged to make up your pay to what you would have expected to be paid had you not been on jury service. Our system has really catered for those personal stresses, not necessarily the stress related to the horrific details of the trial, but in the sense that those other personal circumstances never get into a courtroom.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
This is a question for Professor Bornstein or Ms. Donaldson.
Are there examples in the United States where the media or academics have really had an example of a person suffering from PTSD that has been given lots of publicity? This is an issue we're studying in Canada. I just wondered if you have any other glaring examples of this issue arising in the United States, or any interest that's been given to an individual of this kind.
5:05 p.m.
Vice-President, American Society of Trial Consultants
You see some examples of jurists themselves talking in social media, but I'm not aware of any media attention only.
5:05 p.m.
Professor of Psychology, Courtesy Professor of Law, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, As an Individual
There's been some, and the most recent one I can think of is the trial of the Aurora, Colorado theatre shooter. You might remember the case a few years ago, of the man who went into the midnight screening of a movie with several assault weapons in Aurora, Colorado. I think his last name was Holmes.
There were a lot of media reports during his trial of jurors breaking down in tears while testimony was being presented of the pictures of people who were bleeding and had died. They were a necessary part of the trial, but were extremely hard for jurors to view. Many of them were interviewed after the trial ended and talked about just how difficult it was.
5:05 p.m.
Vice-President, American Society of Trial Consultants
In the many personal injury trials I've been involved in, we have frequently seen a juror cry. Working for the defence, I'll sit there and say oh, we just lost that juror. They're going to vote for the plaintiffs. Lo and behold, they're able to separate that out. We find out afterwards that they voted in our favour.
The crying and the emotions you observe are just human emotions, and some jurors are able to separate that out.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
I have to tell you, as a person who watches American movies and reads Michael Connelly novels, I have no idea how these jury consultants work, so it's fascinating. I can't imagine a four-month jury selection process.
When you do the initial vetting of jurors, do you look for signs of emotional instability? Do you have psychologists? Are you able to say, you know, we really better steer clear of them, because I can see trouble down the road with that particular juror's mental and emotional stability?
5:05 p.m.
Vice-President, American Society of Trial Consultants
Yes, in two ways. If there's a written questionnaire and we start getting unusual responses, or outrageous responses with some venting or anger, we know that this is a person whose emotions can't be controlled, and we're going to look closely at that. Generally, we don't know until they've come into the courtroom, are seated, and start to be questioned that there's something not right about them.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
Are these peremptory challenges or for cause when a person is emotionally...?
5:10 p.m.
Vice-President, American Society of Trial Consultants
For cause.
Well, we try for cause, at a judge's discretion.
5:10 p.m.
Vice-President, American Society of Trial Consultants
That's what you have peremptory challenges for.
5:10 p.m.
Professor of Psychology, Courtesy Professor of Law, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, As an Individual
Can I speak to that just briefly? The problem is that many people can fake it.
Also, people who perhaps have emotional stability don't have it 24-7, depending on what's going on in their lives otherwise or what evidence might be presented at trial. They might not respond in an unstable manner, but if they had a fight with their spouse that morning, or who knows what, the emotional instability could manifest itself, which makes it much harder.
