Evidence of meeting #97 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was enforcement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nancy Morrison  Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual
Barbara Gosse  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking
Janine Benedet  Professor of Law, Peter A. Allard School of Law, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Mélanie Carpentier  Director, Victim Services, La Maison de Mélanie

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

My question was about the exploitation of young people. Do we have any information on the amount of trafficking that's non-sexual in this country? Do any of you have any information on that? What part of it is economic? What part of it is sexual? I understand there's an economic component to sexual trafficking, as well.

4:05 p.m.

Director, Victim Services, La Maison de Mélanie

Mélanie Carpentier

According to the studies that have been done, 80% of girls working in the sex trade and in strip clubs were at one time or another under the control of an exploiter.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Does anybody have an answer to Mr. Anderson's actual question, which relates to what component of trafficking in Canada comes from non-sex work, for example, exploited foreign labour, etc.? I think that's what his question was. Does anybody have an answer to that?

4:05 p.m.

Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual

Nancy Morrison

The Inter-Agency Coordination Group statement that I referred to indicated that one-third of the lucrative financial profits gained worldwide from trafficking, totalling about $150 billion a year in 2014, was from the economic or labour aspect of trafficking, and two-thirds was from trafficking for the purpose of prostitution. It was a one-third to two-thirds breakdown worldwide.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

To let you know, Mr. Anderson, we had other witnesses here from the labour side who did talk about that, and so we're happy to send you that information.

Thank you very much.

Ms. Khalid.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for their testimony today.

When we initiated this study, it was basically to look at the exploitation of minors, women and girls, and also the LGBTQ2 communities. Vulnerable communities are taken advantage of, whether it be through labour, forced labour, trafficking of labour, or sex trafficking.

We went across the county, but we started by having a meeting with Statistics Canada to find out the scope of what human trafficking looks like within Canada. It was very surprising to see, starting with Statistics Canada data here in Ottawa, and then going from Halifax to Montreal to Toronto to Edmonton to Vancouver, that nobody's numbers matched. It's something that I think we have an opportunity to tackle when we're looking at the issue of human trafficking within Canada.

I will start with Ms. Benedet and then go on to Ms. Gosse. I'm looking for your comments specifically.

There was a national task force on human trafficking that was struck by the federal government. I want to know what your opinion is of the efficiency or effectiveness of this task force or this action plan.

Secondly, what can we do to have a more collaborative approach to having realistic numbers when it comes to collecting that data and understanding the full picture of what human trafficking looks like in Canada in a whole-of-country approach?

Ms. Benedet.

4:10 p.m.

Prof. Janine Benedet

Those are good questions.

I'll start with the question about the effectiveness of past initiatives. I'm only speaking here of sex trafficking because that's my expertise. I don't have a lot of expertise in the area of labour trafficking.

If we're talking about trafficking for prostitution, and Canada is not alone in this, I think we have fallen into the trap of trying to think of sex trafficking as something wholly distinct from the prostitution industry as a whole. That's led to a lot of problems. It's led us to undercount even the number of cases that do make it to court because of the problem I identified. It's very difficult to proceed—

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Sorry, Ms. Benedet, but could you just answer the question? I do have a few more questions and I'm trying to optimize my time here.

4:10 p.m.

Prof. Janine Benedet

Okay. I'm sorry. I don't mean not to answer the question. Maybe I'll put it more succinctly.

I think past efforts have suffered from the failure to understand the way that the prostitution market feeds into the phenomenon of sex trafficking, and so they're not always counting the right thing. They're looking for these singular cases in which women are chained to some bathtub in some windowless room, and that's all that counts as trafficking.

I think if we're going to have an accurate picture of what trafficking looks like in this country, we have to agree on the definition. We have to use a definition that's realistic and that's closer to the definition in the Palermo protocol. That, to me, is the problem, which is why we have these wildly differing estimates.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you.

Ms. Gosse, perhaps you want to comment.

4:10 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking

Barbara Gosse

First and foremost, one of the biggest problems in this country is that we have no national data collection mechanisms, so law enforcement is working very hard on this with very little resources. Every year, they're told to do more with less. We have been in communication with law enforcement across the country. I can tell you that the incidents of human trafficking they're finding—and those are only those incidents that come to their attention—show that an extensive number of underage girls are being trafficked. That data is incredibly important.

However, law enforcement statistics are collected by the individual police services. They are collected in slightly different ways, maybe not using the same criteria. The problem is that you can't make comparisons between those statistics across the country. We need a national data collection mechanism that will allow us to collect this data on a realistic basis.

At the Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking, one of the ways that we see is to implement a national human trafficking hotline. The U.S. has been successful in doing this for 12 years. Also, the Polaris project in the U.S. has assisted in implementing the Mexican hotline and the hotline in the U.K. This allows an independent organization to receive calls from victims and to provide them with a centralized, localized response right off the bat. It will also allow them to refer these individuals for services, and get them the help they need at that instance, or refer them to the services they are requesting at the time. It also allows for the collection of that data, and it allows members of the public to report incidents.

As for a national action plan, I should tell you that the federal national action plan expired in June of 2016, so technically we don't have a national action plan here with a national strategy. We only have four provinces across the country with provincial strategies on human trafficking. There has been a recognition by the federal Department of Public Safety that we do need a new national action plan. I think that's going to require a coordinated, integrated strategy between the federal government, the provincial governments, and municipal governments as well, because trafficking is happening in all of those jurisdictions. It really needs to be supported through proper resource allocation to allow the addressing of realities and challenges facing community-based organizations that are working in this area, and also for law enforcement that needs additional resources to investigate these incidents.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you, Ms. Gosse.

I have just one quick follow-up question for you. You had said something in your testimony specifically about engaging stakeholders and grassroots organizations in combatting human trafficking. As we went across the country, we noticed—well, I definitely noticed—that a lot of tension exists between law enforcement and sex workers. Quite honestly, sex workers seem to be at the front line to be in a position to notice if there is any victim of trafficking within their sphere. When we take that harm reduction approach and try to provide support to the victims, how do you think we can better build that relationship between law enforcement and the sex workers who are in the business?

4:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking

Barbara Gosse

First and foremost, I think there's been a sea change over the last four or five years in the way law enforcement is working with and dealing with sex workers in this industry. I have never found there to be active identification of human trafficking coming from any sex workers' rights organization, or from sex workers on the ground, in illicit massage parlours, or who are working in the field, actually providing statistics or identifying human trafficking happening, even when there are minors being trafficked in areas where sex workers are working. I haven't seen their informing members of law enforcement that trafficking is happening to be an effective process, primarily because many of the pimps who are working with these sex workers are also trafficking, and sometimes trafficking minors as well. They want to fly under the radar. There has to be a reality to this. We're not finding that sex workers have an interest in actually reporting human trafficking interests.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Mr. Rankin.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

I would like to begin by thanking all the witnesses for their testimony. I've got so many questions and so little time. Let me jump in, if I could, to Judge Morrison and Professor Benedet.

We've heard different views in this committee, as you might expect, on the issue of human trafficking and the connection between it and prostitution. Some believe that prostitution is a form of human trafficking.

Professor Benedet, I think you expressed that view well when you talked about the distinction between forced human trafficking versus prostitution. You called that distinction wrong. I think you called it bad prostitution versus okay prostitution.

Professor Benoit of the University of Victoria pointed out that “adult consensual sex for money is not human trafficking”, and she argued that we ought not to conflate those two thoughts.

Second, we have the case for repeal that Pivot in Vancouver has put forward, arguing that the PCEPA violates sex workers' rights under the charter, and that restrictions on communicating for the purposes of selling sexual services infringes on a woman's charter rights.

We obviously have these different perspectives. I'd like to ask each of you if you could comment on that dichotomy, and how can viewing prostitution as human trafficking help or hinder efforts to fight human trafficking?

Perhaps I could start with you, Professor Benedet.

4:15 p.m.

Prof. Janine Benedet

First of all, just to underline, I do hope I made it clear in my submission that trafficking is a distinct term to the extent that trafficking does require a third party. Not all prostitution meets the definition of trafficking. If there's no third party involved, it can't be trafficking. You can't traffic yourself. However, whether a third party is involved or not, that does not end the question about what's actually going on in that trade.

I agree with Pivot and I agree with Judge Morrison that the provision that applies that still has some residual criminalization of those who sell sex ought to be repealed. It serves no useful purpose to criminalize people for their own exploitation just because they happen to be near a day care or a school.

What these groups who are advocating decriminalization don't want to talk about is the men who buy sex. It's always cast in terms of this population of sex workers who apparently don't come into prostitution with any of these constraints and should simply be left to protect themselves, apparently, from the violence they encounter. I don't buy it.

I think it's looking at the wrong end of the transaction. The men who buy sex, just buy it. They're the ones who create the market for the traffickers. They don't go around making choices based on the trafficking or non-trafficking distinctions. It would be impossible to have a legal provision that required proof that they knew that the person they were purchasing was being trafficked. It's not how the sex trade works.

I don't think all prostitution is trafficking. What I want to be careful about is that we don't then turn around and say, the rest of it must be terrific, if there's no third party involved, or that the men who do that aren't contributing to the problem of trafficking, because they are.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Okay.

Judge Morrison.

4:20 p.m.

Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual

Nancy Morrison

One of the things that's never talked about by those who want to legalize prostitution are the children, the teenagers. You cannot separate the issue of children, the young, in the sex trade, as I've said.

In the early 1970s in Vancouver, I tied up the provincial courts for about a year and a half because I defended almost every prostitute, dozens of them, who came into my office. I've prosecuted them. I also sat as a judge.

In almost every single case I have ever been involved with dealing with prostitutes, as a prosecutor, defence counsel, or a judge, each of those prostitutes began as children. By children, I mean under the age of 18. Any statistics will tell you that most prostitutes begin in their early teens, some as early as 12, 13, 14.

The one thing that those who want to decriminalize never talk about is the age that most begin at. It is in their teens. It's almost a Pretty Woman image, but Richard Gere is not out there waiting. Not all are students earning their way through university. If they began as children, the idea of consent isn't there. You have to talk about the youth.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

My second question is for Ms. Carpentier.

First of all, Ms. Carpentier, I salute your courage as a survivor of human trafficking. I also want to thank you for your work with victims at La Maison de Mélanie. I think what you're doing is wonderful, and I want to thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Director, Victim Services, La Maison de Mélanie

Mélanie Carpentier

Thank you very much.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

What are the key recommendations you would make to the committee? Would it be to amend the Criminal Code? For instance, you talked about the burden of proof. Or would it be to focus on improving victim services? Or maybe both, I don't know.

4:20 p.m.

Director, Victim Services, La Maison de Mélanie

Mélanie Carpentier

It would be to give these victims recognition, because right now they don't get any. It's as if they lose all value after being raped or victimized. It's hard to find work, be accepted, and be recognized for who they are. The whole mentality needs to change.

If the law is amended, society's mentality is sure to change eventually. Buying sex is now a crime, and that's a step in the right direction. Decriminalizing sex work and telling sex workers they're victims is another step, but now we have to put all this into action.

For a man to have paid for sexual services in the past isn't a bar to employment. But when I'm interviewing for a job, they always tell me they can't hire me because I used to be a sex worker.

You've talked the talk. Now it's time to walk the walk.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Yes, I understand.

4:20 p.m.

Director, Victim Services, La Maison de Mélanie

Mélanie Carpentier

The important thing is to follow through. Sex work has increased dramatically, but we can't get concrete statistics because it used to happen in public places, whereas now it's more underground. Girls are posting ads on Backpage or other dating sites. It's even harder to get figures. We will never get statistics on the number of victims of human trafficking in Canada.

By criminalizing human trafficking, creating a legal framework around sex work, and applying the measures set out in Bill C-452, you would be showing that this is not acceptable. If people feel comfortable in the sex work industry and want to work in that field, they would have the right to keep doing so, because it's legal, but we need to protect victims. As for transactions between two consenting people, it's not up to me to say that's not okay.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

All right, thank you.