Justice Committee on May 22nd, 2018

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for sharing your stories

One thing we've learned so far in this study as it progressed is the lack of data when we're looking at tackling something like human trafficking at a national level, maybe sex trafficking or labour trafficking for the purposes of forced labour. One thing we keep hitting against is the lack of data and the evasive nature of the crime.

Ms. Thomas—and I would like to hear from every one of you—when you collect data in your own organizations, you would understand the way the victims operate and also perhaps understand how the national framework of data collection with respect to victims specifically could be better coordinated. Can I have your thoughts on how we can improve our data sharing system or data collecting system?

[Lori Anne Thomas]

The only way I think you're going to be able to get it is through the intervention of police agencies, and at least documenting or providing.... They would be the best because they're the ones on the front line, then the prosecution, and I would include race-based statistics. The problem is you're asking people, both the police and the crown attorneys, who already have a significant amount on their plate, to assist with statistical data collection, and that's going to be difficult to do.

I think that's the only way you're going to get that information you need, especially with those who have the intervention of the criminal justice system, whether charges are laid or not.

[Lanna Perrin]

May I add to that? I've seen this a lot on the streets of Toronto where a lot of different people want to collect data. There are surveys. They give honorariums, and if you identify as a trafficked woman and do this questionnaire, you're going to get $100. They've never been trafficked in their lives, and I've seen it many times through Maggie's, more than you want to believe.

[Natasha Falle]

While on the street corner being trafficked, I've received questionnaires by Maggie's about which terminology would be appropriate to use. Nearly all of us were against the term “sex worker”, because we felt that it led people to believe that we were there for sex, when in fact we were there for money. The money was our number one motivating factor, whereas for the people who were buying sex, they were there for sex, power, and control.

I ran a court diversion program for seven and a half years. I was a counsellor and program manager of a court diversion program, which is what led Bridget and me to start our coalition. We didn't believe that women should be criminalized in having to be forced to go to support.... I believed in my program. My program was good. We were able to get some stats through our intake process, which were also submitted in another committee as evidence for the Bedford challenge. Eighty-five per cent of the people who came through our program indicated that they had been trafficked at some point during their duration in the sex trade. Eighty-five per cent reported that.

[Linda MacDonald]

One of the things I can't understand is why we're focused on trying to find ways to help women supposedly stay safe on the street instead of looking at the young people who are unsafe on the street now and providing them viable, safe options to get off the street. That's one of the problems we're grappling with in our province of Nova Scotia.

I'm part of a task force on human trafficking in Nova Scotia. The young kids come and talk about the trafficking, and there's no real safe place for them. If we had safe places, we would get the data there, and they wouldn't have to be forced to make choices on whether they want to stay on the street or not. They could get an education and develop a life that's not based on whether they want to be exploited or not. Whether or not someone wants to recognize the term, it's exploitation. When someone is buying your body, I don't know what other term we can use.

I think it's very unfair to our youth in this country to be moving away from the law that we've already developed against prostitution and exploitation. We obviously can't separate human trafficking and prostitution. A lot of this conversation today has been about prostitution. I'm fine with that, but I thought I was coming to a panel on human trafficking.

I'll give you the example of talking to the police in Sweden about going to Germany and visiting the German brothels. One of them presented a panel for us in Nova Scotia. Many activists came and viewed his talk. He showed us images of men who went to a legitimate brothel, some masked and some not, and wanted to gangbang a pregnant woman. That was what they bought. She was eight months pregnant. Some had their masks on. Some were happy to show their faces.

That's the way we move if we start to say that it's okay to exploit women and girls. That's a dangerous place, in my opinion. I think we're being co-opted by the sexualized exploitation industry to change our thinking away from where we started. We have seven countries now that have moved to the Nordic model. They're moving that way. If Canada moves backwards, to me it's a sad statement for our youth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

We're going to go to the next questioner. I think that debate was exhausted.

Monsieur Picard.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

I have a number of very small questions, but there's a line to follow with that, so bear with me. I would suggest that you all wear your earpieces, because I would like to switch to French, please. I'm much more comfortable with my own language. Okay?

I will approach this issue with an open mind. I have no problem discussing this subject. There is even a list of circumstances that could justify the need for sexual services outside of an exploitative context. Let's set that aside.

My first question is for Kara Gillies.

When you provide a service, what percentage of income do you keep and what percentage do you give to your supervisor?

[Kara Gillies]

It varies dramatically. It varies across subsector, on the street, in a massage parlour, in an escort agency. It varies geographically.

I can say that if you are working for somebody else, you can give anywhere from 5% or 10% up to, more commonly, 50% or 60%, and in situations that I would call largely exploitative, it could be as much as 100%. Often it's dependent upon what services you're getting in return, so if an escort agency is providing a driver, a place to work, and paying for your ads, you're going to be paying more than for an escort agency that, for example, is just running an ad for you.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Let's say the percentage varies from 5% to 10% or from 60% to 80%, in general. The purpose isn't to give details by sector of activity; I don't want a price list. However, I assume that the person supervising you is not a duly incorporated entity with a registration number and a GST number.

[Kara Gillies]

It really varies. In municipalities—and Toronto is one of them—there are some sex work establishments that are not overtly addressed as such, and they offer, say, erotic massage or escort services, but they really are sex work services, and those that are registered and incorporated do indeed collect and remit HST. Others do not.

Just like other businesses in other sectors, people conduct themselves in different ways.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

What conditions do you have to meet when you tell your supervisor that you're leaving your job?

[Kara Gillies]

Typically it's, “Well, we're sorry to lose you,” and, “Goodbye.” That's where I think we need to distinguish between sex work and trafficking, because clearly, if somebody is trafficked, they can't say goodbye and walk out the door. The reality is that there are enough people willing to engage in sex work and enough people willing to hire them that it becomes a non-issue. In fact, in a big city like Toronto, there are many workers who move from establishment to establishment looking for the work conditions and the work pay that works best for them.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Okay.

I've had conversations with former Montreal gang members. They told me that it's almost impossible to meet someone working in the sex industry who isn't under the control of a pimp.

Do you agree with that statement?

[Kara Gillies]

Sorry, could you say that again?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I'll translate. The Montreal police services told him that it's almost impossible to find—

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

No, former gang members.

Allow me to switch. Former gang members—

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Have told him that it's almost impossible for somebody to be in this industry without being under the control of a pimp. He's asking if you believe that's true or not.

Sorry about the gang versus the police.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

It's okay—other gangs.

[Kara Gillies]

Absolutely not. I've worked for many years completely independently. I would also question the language of “pimp”. If by “pimp” one means a manager, then of course one can work with or without one. It is the case, though, that if you have somebody watching out for you, it can help with things like bail costs, security, and navigating the system. It can help with all sorts of specifics.

That said, I can't speak to particular subregions across the country where, particularly around gang activity, there may be particular contexts and dynamics that could mean you can't work if you don't have a man.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Speaking of a manager, what kind of a contract do you have with your own employer?

[Kara Gillies]

I'm sorry. Could you say that again?

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Speaking of managers, what kind of contract do you have with this person?

[Kara Gillies]

As the worker?

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

You work with a manager apparently, so what kind of contract do you have?

[Kara Gillies]

At this point, our contracts are all verbal. That's simply because any written contract would be a clear violation of the criminal laws pertaining to third parties materially benefiting in relation to a commercial enterprise or procuring. That is a challenge because when you have a verbal contract in any work sector, it's much harder to enforce because you just have somebody's word for it.

One of the reasons I really push for better protections for sex workers is that many of the abuses we face are not physical violence or psychological trauma, although that can clearly happen. It's labour abuses. If we don't have the protections of employment standards, human rights legislation, occupational health and safety, it really is up to the discretion of individual managers, and that's not fair for anybody in any type of work.