Evidence of meeting #5 for Justice and Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Raphael Tachie  Vice-President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers
Hana O'Connor  Ontario Conferences Coordinator, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity
Cameron Aitken  Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity
Bonnie Brayton  National Executive Director, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada
Karine Myrgianie Jean-François  Director of Operations, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada
Rosel Kim  Staff Lawyer, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Monique St. Germain  General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
Sarah Flemming  Executive Director, Colchester Sexual Assault Centre
Jess Grover  Board Chair, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre
Amie Kroes  Board Secretary, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre
Lori Anne Thomas  President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

My questions will be for you, Ms. St. Germain.

I think you have some excellent ideas here specifically, but there are three areas where I think you wanted to see an addition. You wanted to see children specifically included, and people in general who are abused virtually, as well as victims of human trafficking.

Is that correct?

12:50 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

I was recently at an International Women's Day luncheon. I had the pleasure of hearing a victim of human trafficking. She described the time she was being raped for three months.

This might seem obvious, but I want to get it on the record. In your interactions with the victims of human trafficking, are there any victims less traumatized than sexual assault victims?

12:50 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection

Monique St. Germain

No, they are absolutely very traumatized individuals. In fact, there's one thing we have really noticed, and it's very striking, because we monitor recorded case law from across the country and human trafficking cases that involve children specifically. What we have noticed is that almost never do those victims file victim impact statements. Almost never is there any information brought forward before the court about the long-term and ongoing impact that accrues to these individuals.

We have noticed that is a really significant thing, because when it comes down to sentencing in particular, if the judge doesn't understand the victim impact.... That's supposed to be one of the criteria they look at, but they can't understand it if they don't have a victim coming forward to say something.

We see that problem with children. We see it with human trafficking victims who are children and with commercial sexual exploitation. Those provisions being missed in the list of Criminal Code provisions was a bit shocking.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Like I said, just to get this on the record—I have an idea what your response will be—insensitivity would revictimize them just as much as any other victim of sexual assault.

12:50 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection

Monique St. Germain

Yes, absolutely.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you.

Do I have any more time?

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

You have about a minute.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

I would like to go back now to the Canadian Association of Black Lawyers. My question is this.

Justice MacDonald, of course, came to our committee—not that you have the view of the amendments—but he suggested a series of amendments that would perhaps soften the law with respect to it less telling the judiciary. Generally I think the characterization of his view might be of working with the judiciary.

Would that be an amendment you would be more agreeable with?

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Very briefly, Ms. Thomas.

12:50 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers

Lori Anne Thomas

[Technical difficulty--Editor] especially with respect to the education would be, I think, more favourable than the way it is currently articulated.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you very much, Ms. Lawrence.

We'll move on to Mr. Sangha.

You have three minutes.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON

Thank you, everyone, for coming today and giving your valuable input.

In Bill C-5, the major part that we are studying is how the Canadian Judicial Council will establish standards on how to give training to new judges. In that, they will have suggestions from you and different groups to build the standards. Those seminars will be imparted to the judges who are coming for the training.

From yesterday onward, we have heard from many sectors. People have come here to give their organization's and association's input. It's regarding seniors, children, women and different types of other communities. You people are doing a great job of representing separate sectors of the community.

We have to keep the independence of the judiciary on one side here. This question is the same and one that is asked many times. Please give your points on what you want to be included in the seminar for training the judges, so that we can ensure that the best judicial training is being given and is comprehensive and inclusive. Keep in mind that those judges already have the best experience. They have 10 years experience as lawyers. They were in the communities. They know many things and still we want to give them training regarding the sexual assault cases.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

You have one minute.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Ramesh Sangha Liberal Brampton Centre, ON

Please give the points. We want a little bit of an idea. What you want to be included in the seminar?

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

You have 30 seconds for a brief response. Thank you.

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Colchester Sexual Assault Centre

Sarah Flemming

The question is what we want to see in the seminars for judges specifically with regard to sexual assault training.

If we look at the fabric of Canada and at what most judges look like, they don't necessarily match up. From that perspective alone, I think it would be beneficial for judges, with all of their experience, to understand what it feels like from the perspective of a survivor or from marginalized people. I think with that, and hearing in first voices, it can only be helpful for them when they preside over our sexual assault cases.

12:55 p.m.

Board Chair, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre

Jess Grover

I just want to add very quickly about the neurobiology of trauma. We need training about what trauma does to someone based in science, based on what we know and based on research.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you.

Thank you very much for that.

Mr. Fortin, you have one minute.

12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for any of the three of you.

The bill sets out certain conditions for the appointment of judges. In particular, you must have practised law for 10 years in the province where you are and you must undertake to participate in continuing education on matters related to sexual assault.

I understand that you support the bill. However, do you think it is sufficient as it stands, or do you think it would be useful to add other conditions to it on the whole issue of sexual assault?

12:55 p.m.

Board Secretary, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Colchester Sexual Assault Centre

Sarah Flemming

Yes, absolutely.

12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

What other condition are you thinking of?

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Colchester Sexual Assault Centre

Sarah Flemming

Yes, ideally. That's what I spoke to in having the sexual violence court be part of domestic violence. For judges who have shown that's an area of law they want to practise or know more about, that trauma lens can only be helpful in their presiding over further cases.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you very much, Ms. Flemming.

Thank you so much, Mr. Fortin.

Mr. MacGregor, you have one minute. Thank you.