Evidence of meeting #5 for Justice and Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Raphael Tachie  Vice-President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers
Hana O'Connor  Ontario Conferences Coordinator, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity
Cameron Aitken  Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity
Bonnie Brayton  National Executive Director, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada
Karine Myrgianie Jean-François  Director of Operations, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada
Rosel Kim  Staff Lawyer, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Monique St. Germain  General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
Sarah Flemming  Executive Director, Colchester Sexual Assault Centre
Jess Grover  Board Chair, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre
Amie Kroes  Board Secretary, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre
Lori Anne Thomas  President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers

11:45 a.m.

Staff Lawyer, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Rosel Kim

I think there is a value in having some specificity but also in being open to the fact that our understanding of how systemic inequality has been perpetuated is changing every day. It is important to signal what we understand to be factors in systemic inequality so far, such as the ongoing impacts of colonialism and systemic racism, which we understand have played into the harmful myths and stereotypes. Keeping it as an open and evolving list I think is a good idea.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Do you have anything to add in the final 30 seconds?

11:45 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity

Cameron Aitken

Very briefly, I think that's definitely a great point on how best to capture the spirit of that training, but again, our experience, especially in doing training with a lot of institutions, is that it can also go really poorly and end up serving a counterproductive purpose. If it's done in a way that is not intentful, and does not have all these layers and impacts, it can be so counterproductive that it makes it even harder to have redress.

I think that making sure it's very intentful from the onset is a way to approach the process successfully.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Given the time that we have remaining, I will split it, with three minutes for the Conservatives, three for the Liberals and then one each for the NDP and the Bloc for any questions you have.

We'll start with Ms. Dancho.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I just want to say thank you very much to each of you for being here. I feel that this issue is extremely important and I'm very excited to see this legislation going forward.

I do want to discuss a couple of the things that were mentioned. We know that the purpose of this bill is to ensure that victims of sexual assault and violence are treated with the dignity, compassion and respect they deserve from judges, but beyond that, I believe that this legislation is aiming to create an environment where victims feel comfortable—or at least a bit more comfortable—in sharing their very traumatizing story in an otherwise very intimidating environment.

A few of you have alluded to this. I believe, Ms. Kim, you mentioned this, and, Ms. Brayton, I know you mentioned this as well. In retelling this trauma over and over again to several different authority figures in intimidating environments, those details can sometimes be different in the retelling, because they are so traumatic and so difficult to remember.

In the education and seminars for judges that will be be created, what can we do to ensure that those seminars and that education focuses on that, to ensure that there is compassion and that judges understand there needs to be work done to understand that this shouldn't be used against victims? I think that's what you mentioned, Ms. Kim. Sometimes those details, those differences, can be used against the victim. I believe that's what you said.

What can we do about that? How can we build a seminar that educates judges to understand that this is traumatizing and they need to adjust for this?

11:50 a.m.

Staff Lawyer, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Rosel Kim

I think there is a lot of psychological and neuroscience research out there on the impact of trauma and how it impacts memory. It would be great to incorporate what's already out and accepted in the scientific community about how trauma can impact someone's memory and their demeanour, in order to combat what we think about how a victim should behave and tell their story. That, hopefully, would inform what we think about how a victim should tell their story or how they should behave in a courtroom.

11:50 a.m.

Director of Operations, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada

Karine Myrgianie Jean-François

I would add that everything that Rosel said is right, but sometimes discrepancies happen because of the way our brain works and because of what we remember. It can also be the way we talk to different people, in that the way you talk to your friend or the way that you talk to a police officer might be slightly different than it is for a lawyer or a therapist. Sometimes the words you use may be more clinical, but they're still the truth. They're still your truth, and survivors should be believed.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I appreciate both of those comments, and Ms. Kim, particularly the science of trauma. I think that's something that the committee, when creating these seminars and education, should absolutely factor into that education.

Are there any more comments on that?

11:50 a.m.

National Executive Director, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada

Bonnie Brayton

It's again a reminder about how you communicate—what Karine was saying about how you communicate. Understanding that individual accommodation is something that really needs to be ingrained in the way the training is set up, so that it's understood that it's different and it's individualized. That you really can't take a cookie-cutter approach is the fundamental underlying thing we need to understand. As a consequence, what is appropriate trauma-informed counselling for one group of women may not address it the same way in another context.

I do think it's, again, coming back to that intersectional understanding of what and how.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you, Ms. Brayton.

Moving on to Mr. Virani, you have three minutes.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you again, to all of the witnesses.

In these three minutes, I'm going to ask you a question and I'm going to ask all of you to respond to it in about 45 seconds. Sorry for the brevity.

Picking up where Ms. Damoff and Mr. MacGregor were, we are struggling with unpacking the term “social context”, which I agree with you needs to be unpacked, but not being overly prescriptive in a way that potentially misses some groups.

There is language that is known to the judges and is also known to the mandate letter that Ms. Kim referred to, which is “unconscious bias” and “cultural competency” training. What I would ask each of the groups to do is respond to whether unpacking social context to include unconscious bias and cultural competency training would be an improvement to this legislation.

Could we start with DAWN, please?

11:55 a.m.

Director of Operations, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada

Karine Myrgianie Jean-François

I think I will go back to what we said, and you'll get that afterwards, in French as recommendations and in English as speaking notes—we work bilingually. This idea that some of us are marginalized in different ways is what we need to understand. We also need to understand that marginalization and what we know about the ones who are the most marginalized evolves in time. It's important, the science about our unconscious bias, and also what cultural competency means and for whom, right? Often we think about that for newcomers, but some of us who were racialized have been here for generations, so we need to improve and also think about deaf culture.

11:55 a.m.

Staff Lawyer, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund

Rosel Kim

I think having unconscious bias and having cultural competence are good starting grounds, but I would reiterate what I said earlier that there should be some other signalling of the historical context of why we are where we are today. We can also talk about the over incarceration of certain racialized groups, and certainly the reconciliation part should be front and centre in talking about the social context and ongoing impacts of colonialism.

11:55 a.m.

Ontario Conferences Coordinator, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity

Hana O'Connor

Going back to what everyone has said about unconscious bias and stereotypes, when you're talking from a 2SLGBTQ context, false stereotypes around the 2SLGBTQ are just rife in society in general. Within the queer community, statistically the people most likely to experience intimate partner violence and sexual assault are transgender women, who are highly fetishized in our society. The next most likely demographic is bisexual women. Bisexual women are highly sexualized in our society. Around stereotypes and unconscious bias, this can have an impact on everything to do with a sexual assault trial when it come to witness statements. 2SLGBTQ people may censor themselves more. We're going back to the language that they may use.

I definitely agree with what everyone else was saying regarding that social context.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

Thank you.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you very much for that.

Mr. Fortin, you have one minute.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Once again, thank you for being here.

I understand that, for various reasons, you are sensitive to this bill. We are too. In our opinion, victims of sexual assault sometimes do not have the credibility they deserve when they testify because the judge is not always aware of their reality or what they have been through. They also do not feel comfortable in court. This bill seeks to mitigate those two disadvantages.

In addition to what is stated in the bill, is there anything else that you could recommend to help victims be more believed and more comfortable in the judicial process? Any one of you can answer.

11:55 a.m.

National Executive Director, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada

Bonnie Brayton

I'm going to again come back to the D.A.I. decision, which centred on the idea that a woman with an intellectual disability is telling the truth, and if she's telling the truth it's not....

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

She's always telling the truth.

11:55 a.m.

National Executive Director, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada

Bonnie Brayton

I'm just trying to get to the point.

I apologize for answering in English.

It's to get to the point where it is fundamental from the D.A.I. decision that the woman's right to be believed has to be centred. This is absolutely at the centre of why I think this training is important. The issue of believing women based on many different biases is why we need this.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.

Thank you.

Mr. MacGregor.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you.

I'll ask my question quickly to the Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity.

You mentioned maybe further making sure that diverse groups are enshrined. As the bill is currently written, the Canadian Judicial Council is going to consult with organizations it considers appropriate, such as sexual assault survivors, and groups and organizations that support them.

Are you confident that the Canadian Judicial Council has the ability to consult in a diverse way? Do we need to amend that to make sure that there's specific language in there to represent the diversity that we see in Canadian society?

Noon

Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity

Cameron Aitken

I think that the crux of our one program is that when you focus on the main group of people involved in the VAW sector and people who support survivors, you sometimes get one mould of feminism or one overarching understanding of how things should be done. In the absence of it being clear that it needs to be a smattering and not just a traditional canon.... That was why we were so thrilled to see the other organizations that were being represented today, not only sexual assault centres, but other advocacy groups that have specific identities and communities in mind.

From our experience, we would feel more comfortable with it being as specific as possible because of our experience in trying to support service providers in the VAW sector.

Noon

Ontario Conferences Coordinator, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity

Hana O'Connor

I don't think anything can be lost from being more specific with the language.