Evidence of meeting #5 for Justice and Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Raphael Tachie  Vice-President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers
Hana O'Connor  Ontario Conferences Coordinator, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity
Cameron Aitken  Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity
Bonnie Brayton  National Executive Director, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada
Karine Myrgianie Jean-François  Director of Operations, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada
Rosel Kim  Staff Lawyer, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Monique St. Germain  General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
Sarah Flemming  Executive Director, Colchester Sexual Assault Centre
Jess Grover  Board Chair, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre
Amie Kroes  Board Secretary, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre
Lori Anne Thomas  President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

I want to shift the theme for a moment to go towards young people and children.

First off, I want to thank Ms. Grover for being so honest with us with what has happened to her in the past.

This is a question around children, essentially.

Do you feel that the courts are in a position where judges are able to appreciate the experiences of young people, the trauma that young people have suffered, and can fulsomely take in their testimony in a way that will allow for justice to be served?

You can both comment on that, Ms. St. Germain and Ms. Grover, please.

12:35 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection

Monique St. Germain

Do you want me to go first?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Yes.

12:35 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection

Monique St. Germain

Okay. I think that when it comes to the court system, we have an excellent judiciary. We have different levels of competence and knowledge when it comes to children and specific issues surrounding children. For example, our judges who practice in family law areas would have a lot of different pieces of information and knowledge about children and child development. They would have that because of the type of work they do.

Our judges who hear criminal cases may not have the same kind of information and training. What we have found is an evolution in the judgments that we review. The language that is used, the understanding that is expressed, can vary considerably from judge to judge.

Training that takes that into account and helps to level the playing field a bit, and provides all of the judges with information that's relevant, I think would be much better for children.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you.

12:35 p.m.

Board Chair, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre

Jess Grover

We know that trauma affects developing brains differently, and often permanently. It doesn't necessarily permanently affect functioning, but it affects how your brain works, where things happen.

It's really important that when we are talking to children, we recognize that not only is development a spectrum, but that it is impacted by trauma. That is a very specialized form of psychology, so ensuring that is part of training and understanding is incredibly important, in order to find justice for child survivors.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you very much for those comments. I really appreciate them.

Mr. Fortin, for five minutes.

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My thanks to all our witnesses for their significant contribution.

We all agree, of course, that victims must be better protected and that the judicial system must be adapted so that it supports and understands them better.

However, I must admit that I am troubled by what we are told about children who are victims of violence and sexual assault. We are hearing a lot about them these days. I somewhat agree with the witnesses on this, particularly with Ms. St. Germain and Ms. Grover.

Ms. St. Germain spoke briefly about the sort of unique environment for the Youth Division. The judges in that court work with young people on a daily basis and have a somewhat different approach. In many circumstances, for example, it is possible to hear the testimony of young children in a place other than the courtroom so that those children feel more comfortable.

First, do you believe that the training proposed for judges under Bill C-5 should be based on what is done in the Youth Division, or even be largely, but not identically, modelled on the division's approach?

Second, in what specific ways could we reduce the impact of sexual assault on young people and make it easier for them to testify?

12:40 p.m.

General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection

Monique St. Germain

I'm not sure I understand part of the question, but from our perspective, if you're getting at the special circumstances and treatment that happen under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, the act is really about children who commit crimes. We're talking here about children who are victims. That's something our whole legal system doesn't do a great job of recognizing. We're really good at recognizing the rights of children accused of crimes.

There will definitely be ways to reduce the victimization of children through the court process. These have to do with a lot of the victim services that are provided around the country, such as support persons being permitted in all courtrooms. We know that doesn't happen in all areas, despite the fact it is clearly in the Criminal Code.

We also know there is a tremendous gap in victim services, although not the ones delivered through courts, but the ones delivered after a trial is over. For the child, the trauma has not ended. The trial may be over from the criminal justice perspective, but for a child that victimization can go on for a lifetime, particularly if a child had imagery created of the sexual assault, because that can circulate online indefinitely.

12:40 p.m.

Board Chair, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre

Jess Grover

I don't have anything to add to what my colleague said, but Ms. Kroes may have additional things to say.

12:40 p.m.

Board Secretary, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre

Amie Kroes

The only thing I would call attention to, just based on what our colleague said, is that Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre funding only supports our working with youth and adults who are over the age of 12. We are not in a position right now to support these children as they work through the court process, or with them directly afterwards with their journey of healing after their experiences of trauma.

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

It is quite awful.

I understand that appearing in court can upset the children. Ms. St. Germain addressed the issue of young people and pointed out that the approach is different when it comes to young victims. Furthermore, Quebec has the Youth Protection Act; there are special provisions for young offenders, and she is right to point out that the approach for young victims is different.

I would like to know whether one of you could recommend concrete measures that we could incorporate into the bill to improve the support provided to young people when they appear in court. For example, I imagine that you would agree to have them testify outside court. What do you think of the idea of having them testify in a separate room, without the accused being present? Do you think that would help young people?

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Monsieur Fortin, my sincerest apologies. You're completely out of time.

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Okay.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Perhaps you can pick one witness to give very brief remarks on that, please.

12:40 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers

Lori Anne Thomas

That's actually something that occurs anyway at this point. Right now, if there are vulnerable witnesses, be they adults or children, they can testify in another room. There are mechanisms in the current Criminal Code that are essential almost by default. The defence would have to argue why such mechanisms should not be used, such as having a child testify in another room or testify behind a screen or by video link. In addition, some courthouses, at least in Toronto, do have support animals for victims as aides. There are things currently in place.

I think that's already in the Criminal Code but I defer to anyone else if there is any other improvements they can see to address that.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you very much, Ms. Thomas. We appreciate that.

Mr. MacGregor, you have five minutes.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you, Chair.

My first question will be for the Canadian Association of Black Lawyers. You did state that you had some concerns. You said that the goals of the bill are laudable but you had some concerns over judicial independence because, through this bill, applicants are required to undertake to participate in education on sexual assault law.

Could you not argue, though, that we are still respecting judicial independence because we are going to have no role whatsoever in how a judge uses that education? They are still going to be completely free and impartial when they present their decision in a particular case.

If not through this bill, what role should Parliament play in making sure our judges are accountable? We have seen recent examples where judges are using outdated myths and stereotypes.

I would like to hear your thoughts on those two questions, please.

12:45 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers

Lori Anne Thomas

With respect to the act, I think the reporting certainly addresses some of that concern. This would really only affect new judges, those who haven't been appointed as yet. All judges are subject to new judges' training, so we do think this should be the area where it's specifically addressed with this type of training and its mandate.

The concern we have is not so much with respect to this specific area. The concern is that once you open the door to mandating that those who are applying to be judges have certain types of training, essentially the slippery-slope argument can be used, not by your government but by other governments, for other training that may not have, again, a laudable reason to be in place.

We think all of this training, especially with respect to what the presenters at this time and the previous panel...should be taken into consideration and be taught on an ongoing basis. We think the training is absolutely necessary. We just have concerns about mandating it or the undertaking for those who are applying, because, again, it opens the door to other requirements for those applying to be judges in the future. That's where we have some concerns with regard to judicial independence.

With regard to the training, we think it is important. We do think that reporting is important as well.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

What role do you think Parliament should play, then? That was my second question.

12:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers

Raphael Tachie

The role that Parliament can play is making sure that the appointment process appoints not only legally competent lawyers but also suitable lawyers, lawyers who have a [Technical difficulty--Editor] character as well as the social awareness to be able to act as judges, to reflect the values of the Canadian community. To me, that means looking at the people we appointment and the process by which we choose people, but not mandating that it meets certain training requirements as part of the appointment process.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Ms. Grover, you expressed strong support for the bill. There are some differences in this version compared to the version we saw nearly three years ago. Are you happy with how the bill is currently written, or are there some specific amendments that you think we could make use of?

12:45 p.m.

Board Chair, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre

Jess Grover

I feel relatively comfortable with it. I would state in particular that the term “social context” can be challenging. I recognize that there can also be trouble when you start listing out identities or areas that need to be focused upon, but I want to ensure that....

I think the spirit of the bill is quite good. In particular, I believe having judges disclose the reasoning for their decisions is really important for checking why decisions were made.

In my analogy of rape culture being like dust, you have to pick up and look behind everything to see where it is; otherwise, you're not going to find it. I feel it's important for accountability and for transparency to ensure that it is there.

Obviously, I would love to see more done to ensure that the whole judicial process is safer and that there's less secondary victimization of survivors, but I recognize that scope is very large, and we're discussing this today. I think the changes were good, though, between the two.

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Okay. Thank you.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Thank you, Ms. Grover.

I'm moving on to the second round. We're restricting it to three minutes.

Mr. Lawrence, you have three minutes.