Evidence of meeting #11 for Justice and Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard
Joanne Klineberg  Acting General Counsel, Department of Justice
Philippe Méla  Legislative Clerk

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I too, would like to speak in support of the BQ amendment. Let me first say that I agree with Mr. Thériault to the degree that his amendment is not duplicative, that it is complementary, and that it reinforces on the government something that the government failed to do when Bill C-14 was passed.

Mr. Moore, in his comments, noted that he was not here during the debate on Bill C-14. I was here on the debate on Bill C-14. I was a member of this committee, as were you, Madam Chair. I can say that at the time, the provision in the bill mandating a five-year review was considered to be a very important part of the bill. At the time, we were in uncharted territory. We had a Supreme Court decision in Carter that struck down the blanket criminal prohibition on medical assistance in dying. We were certainly starting from the parameters of Carter. There was, however, much that was unknown in terms of how to provide for a legislative response that satisfied what the Supreme Court called on Parliament to do, which was to strike a balance between respecting individual autonomy while at the same time protecting vulnerable persons through a carefully monitored and designed system of safeguards.

The process, starting with the special joint committee on physician-assisted dying, through to the passage of Bill C-14, was over a period of six months, from January 2016 to the end of June 2016. Between the special joint committee and the justice committee, we literally heard from a wide range of witnesses in a process that, although not perfect, was a marked improvement from the process that we had with respect to Bill C-7.

The purpose of establishing that five-year review was in recognition that it would provide sufficient time to determine what worked and what didn't, whether the safeguards were appropriate and whether there were changes needed. It also provided a period in which Bill C-14 could be implemented across Canada. I certainly thought at the time that this would have been the first step. There would have been a review and then a possibility for amendments to Bill C-14.

None of that happened, however. We didn't get a review in June of this year. Mr. Maloney made reference to the fact that there is COVID. Well, yes, there was then, and there is now. I don't believe that is a legitimate excuse for why a review could not and should not have taken place. The fact is that before COVID, this government decided to pre-empt that review, because Bill C-7 was introduced before COVID. It went considerably beyond the scope of the Truchon decision and removed, as we have heard, many important safeguards in Bill C-14. The idea that somehow COVID got in the way of a parliamentary review just doesn't add up.

The attitude of the government was “we know best” in moving ahead with legislation that fundamentally changes the landscape around the medical assistance in dying regime without undertaking any kind of review. The minister and members of the government bragged about their online consultation, which they say informed the drafting of Bill C-7.

I would note, Madam Chair, that several witnesses—including some who did participate between the online survey and the limited consultations that occurred I believe in February—came before our committee over the very short time in which we had hearings to indicate that all of those consultations were with a predetermined outcome. They did not believe that the government was interested in hearing all perspectives, but rather that it had a specific objective upon which the government wished to legislate and was seeking an outcome to validate proceeding in the manner that the government ultimately did with the bill we have before us, namely, Bill C-7.

I would also note that in addition to that consultation being predetermined in terms of its outcome or bias, as evidenced by a number of witnesses who stated this, the online consultation disadvantaged many vulnerable and marginalized Canadians. For those who don't have access to the Internet and those who have visual, mobility or cognitive impairments, their views, their perspectives, were ignored or were certainly made more difficult by what I think is really an insensitive process. People living in remote and northern communities, where were they during the online consultation?

Now we have this very unacceptable situation where we have a very bad piece of legislation that has been repudiated by every national disability rights organization in Canada and by over a thousand physicians, and we don't have a review. What is needed is that comprehensive review. It should have happened before Bill C-7.

It hasn't happened, but with this particular amendment, we would reinforce the need for that to happen, and for that to happen immediately, so that we can have true and meaningful consultation from all segments of Canadian society impacted by medical assistance in dying—by all of those groups—and do it in a comprehensive way and hear from voices that went unheard as this government has sought to ram through Bill C-7.

I happened to be at a press conference this morning where there were many voices, including indigenous voices, that have gone unheard in the four meetings we have had to hear from witnesses. I've said it before and I'll say it again: It need not have been this way. It shouldn't have been this way. It is this way because of what I would submit has been a reckless approach on the part of the government.

At the very least, this amendment underscores what should have happened and what absolutely needs to happen, and that is a review, not five years from now but in a manner that is as expeditious as possible. Certainly a one-year time frame is more than reasonable.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

We're now going to Madame Findlay, who is next on the list.

Go ahead.

November 24th, 2020 / 12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll be fairly brief. I see the time we're running up against here.

Basically, I feel reviews are necessary. This is, as I referred to the other day, very significant, life-altering, pan-Canadian legislation that we're discussing. These are issues about procedures that a few short years ago weren't even allowed. We went into a whole new territory.

Now, with the changes to Bill C-14, which I was not in Parliament to debate, many of what I would have thought—and obviously my side of the table believes—were reasonable safeguards have been rejected by others here on the committee and by their parties.

I don't quite understand, to be honest, the comments of my colleague Mr. Garrison that this goes against what he is hoping for. Maybe I didn't understand clearly what my friend had to say, but the amendment put forward by Monsieur Thériault speaks of it being within 12 months. It doesn't say after 12 months or at 12 months. It says within one year.

It also says that it will “be undertaken by any committee of the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament that may be designated or established for that purpose.” As I read this reasonable amendment, which I support, what is being sought here is a mandated review within 12 months, which may be undertaken by this committee or it may be undertaken by a special committee. The point here is that there's a mandate to make sure it happens.

Again, I thought Monsieur Thériault's comments were very good, that this complements the legislation we are clearly moving towards passing here. It sends a clear signal to those wondering, on both sides of all these arguments, where we're going. It sends a clear signal, to those who may be thinking of court challenges or who may just be feeling that this changes their environment and their world view, that we as legislators take this seriously.

Four days on such significant and important legislation is not sufficient, I believe. The rest of the committee did not agree. They wanted this through quickly. I think we should have heard from more witnesses. I don't know what's going to happen in the Senate.

To me, there's nothing here that is stopping what Mr. Garrison was speaking to, which is to get on with this and get on with a review, a review that should have happened and that was not pursued by the Liberal government, even though they were mandated to do it. That I still don't understand.

We sit here with legislation that goes way beyond the Truchon decision. We as legislators are making decisions, it seems to me, based on which health care professionals we choose to listen to and whether or not we choose to listen to the organizations for persons with disabilities.

This is very significant legislation. I don't at all think that it will lead to every piece of legislation having a review clause in it. This is legislation that is in its own category, in my view, in terms of significance.

This amendment simply puts all of us as legislators and the government on notice that there's a process that would require a careful, proper, more thorough and better-informed look at legislation that is so significant that we are making changes to the criminal law of Canada and we are making changes to the provision of health care and palliative care. This committee has chosen not to put in safeguards for conscience rights of physicians. We've heard from physicians who say that they will have to leave their chosen profession if there are no such safeguards.

An earlier amendment was not passed, but this would be the opportunity to look at the lived experience and dying experience of people who are within this system who choose to end their lives this way, who change their mind, and who choose not to go down this path. It gives us an opportunity to look at what supports are in place, what true options are in place for people facing these tough decisions, and for their families, quite frankly, because there's more than just the individual affected.

It's a very reasonable amendment that would bring forward.... I don't trust the fact, to be perfectly honest, that when a review was already mandated and the government chose not to do it.... Unless we have it in the legislation, I'm not confident that asking this committee to look at it will work.

The government has shown that it is prepared to put forward legislation in this area that goes far beyond court decisions, that goes far beyond the directions of the court to date, and therefore this review is absolutely necessary. Canadians would expect no less of us.

Thank you.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you, Madame Findlay.

Mr. Lewis, go ahead.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Lewis Conservative Essex, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be brief.

Earlier on in the debate, specific to this amendment, Mr. Maloney made reference to the fact that the review of Bill C-14 didn't get done because of the pandemic, and I respect that.

However, I have to say that.... I watch Sunday football, and I watch referees review calls on the field all the time during the pandemic. I watch hockey, and I watch referees review calls all the time during the pandemic. When I was a firefighter, we reviewed the actions on scene after incidents all the time, and I'm sure it still happens during the pandemic. I review my bank statement during the pandemic.

I would suggest that it's not because of the pandemic that this review did not get done. Let's call a spade a spade here. First of all, it's because the government decided to prorogue Parliament, so that's really why it didn't happen.

My point is this. If we talk about sports and we talk about my bank statement, as two examples, and if today, during the pandemic, these reviews are still being done, is Bill C-7, which deals with life-and-death decisions, not more important than sports and my bank statement? Absolutely, it is.

Mr. Thériault has brought forward what I believe is a great amendment. It at least gives us one more safeguard, for this committee to look back and review. Some of us won't be here in the next committee, so it provides that next level of safeguard, because quite frankly, Bill C-14 didn't get reviewed. It's vital, and it's due diligence on our behalf to see that going forward.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you, Mr. Lewis.

I will now call the question on BQ-4.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Shall the preamble carry?

(Preamble agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Shall the title carry?

1:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

On division.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Shall the bill as amended carry?

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I think we should have a recorded vote.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Okay.

(Bill C-7 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Shall I report the bill as amended to the House?

1:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

On division.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Shall the committee order a reprint of the bill as amended for the use of the House at report stage?

1:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

1:10 p.m.

An hon. member

On division.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you very much.

Just very quickly for members—

1:10 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Madam Chair, you have been advised that I will be replacing Mr. Thériault once work on Bill C-7 is completed.

I'd like us to discuss the motion of which notice was given on November 3.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you, Mr. Fortin. I was just about to talk about what's going to happen in the next couple of meetings.

I am seeking the consent of the committee to have the first half of the meeting on Thursday for committee business, specifically with respect to Bill C-6. I seek the consent of the committee to be a little proactive and to invite the ministers responsible for Bill C-6 for the second hour of the meeting on Thursday to allow them to speak to Bill C-6 and then answer the members' questions.

1:10 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

As I understand it, we will consider my motion in the first part of the meeting and then move on to Bill C-6.

Is that correct?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

As it will be committee business, members are welcome to discuss whatever needs to be discussed during that committee business. Obviously, we need to start with Bill C-6, as well, at the next meeting.

Mr. Virani—

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

I want the following to be noted. I ask that, at the next opportunity—I know it won't be today, since it is already 1:15 p.m. and our meeting is almost over—we start by considering the motion of which I gave you notice on November 3.