Ms. Bildy.
Evidence of meeting #15 for Justice and Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was therapy.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #15 for Justice and Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was therapy.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms
Could I just clarify and follow up on my last comment with respect to the U.K. decision?
Members do need to know what was important about that decision. In that decision, children—anyone under the age of 16, for sure, and possibly under 18—were found not to have the capacity to consent to the kind of one-way treatment that this bill will require. They don't have the capacity.
Honestly, I'm trying to help you not having to face the music down the line when we have a whole slew of people coming through. The number of young girls particularly who are going through gender transition now.... In some countries, I'm not sure of Canada's number offhand, but I just saw that Sweden's was a 1,500% increase in young girls over a 10-year period. There's something going on. We need to make an evidence-based decision—
Noon
Barrister and Solicitor, Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms
—but not all these girls are transgender.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid
My sincerest apologies, Ms. Bildy, but Mr. Cooper is out of time. We're about a minute over his time.
We'll go now to Mr. Zuberi for five minutes.
Go ahead, sir.
Noon
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
I want to thank all the witnesses for being here.
Also, I want to underscore what my colleague Mr. Virani just said, which was that we all are coming from different perspectives. We all have strong opinions on this, and that's normal. I think our duty here is to listen to each other, to do so in good faith, and to consider fully the testimony that we are hearing at this moment. I just want to put that out there that I personally....
Ms. Aikema and Mr. Gajdics, I also want to applaud both of you for sharing your stories. I know that it's very challenging to do so. This is a very condensed moment where we have a few minutes, but this is important. What you are saying is important to us and we're listening.
I want to put to the Canadian Association of Social Workers, in particular, Ms. Davis-Whelan, the question around peer-review subject matter, peer-review studies on the impacts of conversion therapy.
You did go into this a bit in your first five minutes. Could you elaborate on that now, briefly?
Noon
President, Canadian Association of Social Workers
Yes. I think, actually, that might have been Alexandra who did so in the first few minutes of the conversation.
In terms of peer reviewed, it means basically that what you're referring to is the fact that we have people who are experts in the area, who are recognized and credited for their knowledge and experience to review materials, studies. etc., and then make determinations as to whether or not the material is appropriate, etc. To our knowledge there is nothing that has substantiated that for conversion therapy. It has been discredited.
Noon
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Okay.
Just to reiterate, you're saying that it has been discredited. There have been no positive outcomes and they've been all negative outcomes with respect to what studies have said with respect to conversion therapy.
Noon
President, Canadian Association of Social Workers
If we look at this from the point of view of do no harm, then there's nothing in there, in terms of conversion therapy, about a positive response. It has been harmful.
Noon
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
However, in terms of the legislation that's been drafted, right now it allows for essentially what is a good faith conversation between a professional and somebody who is seeking to explore their identity, to enter into a conversation that is first directed from your client, so to speak. For example, if they want to reduce their sexual desire or other types of questions in this legislation, they can enter that conversation with you and you can help them achieve whatever goal they want to achieve.
Is that correct?
Noon
President, Canadian Association of Social Workers
Yes.
Alexandra, is there anything else you'd like to add to that?
Noon
Social Policy and Communications Coordinator, Canadian Association of Social Workers
No.
Noon
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
If you don't have anything else to add, I have another question with respect to analogous-type categories of individuals, including faith leaders, mentors, a teacher, a parent, or a family member.
You said that you can enter into those conversations that are person-directed by your clients. If that same person turns to their faith leader, coach, teacher, or their sibling to have an open conversation with honest feedback, they can still do that type of exploration.
Do you understand the legislation as such?
Noon
Social Policy and Communications Coordinator, Canadian Association of Social Workers
Yes.
Noon
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
I won't go into any more. This is really what I wanted to flesh out.
I want to underscore what Mr. Virani said before. I think we all agree that this is very important.
Mr. Fortin also said this is a delicate matter.
We do want to listen to everybody and hear your truths.
Again, I want to applaud Ms. Aikema and Mr. Gajdics for being with us.
Thank you.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid
Thank you very much, Mr. Zuberi.
We'll now go to Mr. Fortin for two and a half minutes.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
If I may, I will come back to you, Ms. Bildy.
In the definition of conversion therapy—and this is really the crucial topic here—it's a matter of what will be banned and what will not be banned once the bill has passed.
Here is what the exclusion states:
For greater certainty, this definition does not include a practice, treatment or service that relates (a) to a person's gender transition; or (b) to a person's exploration of their identity or to its development.
I'm not trying to suggest an answer to you, I just want to hear what you think about this. What is your understanding of this exclusion? What will be allowed and what will be excluded?
12:05 p.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms
Thank you.
I understand that it's not clear, and I know that a lot of people find it unclear.
Even if therapists think that perhaps it might leave an opening, they're still going to feel the chill effect of knowing that this is in criminal legislation here; it's the Criminal Code. It will prevent people from engaging in anything other than affirmative-only transition when it comes to gender identity, particularly with children.
The people that you really need to hear from to sort this out are specialists. We have many of them in Canada who are experts in this field, like Dr. Zucker, Dr. Cantor, or Dr. Debra Soh, who were—
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I'm sorry, I don't want to be impolite, but our time is limited, as you have seen.
You were saying earlier that conversions of people who are too young are dangerous, as changes of heart could occur in adulthood, and some adults may want to reverse the transition.
What I understand here is that this is allowed. It says that gender transition will be allowed.
Do you not think that, despite the bill being passed, this will still make it possible for a child or an adolescent to transition?
Is that how you understand it, Ms. Bildy?
12:05 p.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms
It says specifically that conversion therapy means any practice designed to change a person's gender identity to cisgender. Then it says that it does not relate to a person's gender transition.
Those two are—
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I was talking about the exception at the end of the subsection, in the last sentence.
12:05 p.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms
Right. It's for a person's gender transition.
We don't know what that means. By the way, that doesn't help kids who we think should properly take some time to consider whether this is best for them through that watchful waiting approach, which has been a valid form of treatment for many kids and perhaps not exercised enough.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid
Thank you very much.
My apologies again, but we have two and a half minutes left of this panel.
We're going to Mr. Garrison.
Go ahead, sir.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Just let me say to Ms. Aikema that I'm sorry if I left any impression that I believe that her experience should not be affirmed and supported. I don't believe the bill takes away her right to have her experiences, her identity or anything that flows from that, not affirmed. I will be proposing some language to amend the bill to make that a bit clearer.
I want to go back to No Conversion Canada and talk for a minute about something we've heard from a number of witnesses and in briefs presented. It is that the bill bans advertising conversion therapy. There's been concern that this would not include unpaid promotion. I wonder if your position would be that the bill should be a bit broader in the prohibitions around advertising and promotion.
12:05 p.m.
Founder, No Conversion Canada
Yes, thank you for that question. I'll keep it brief given the time.
Our position is that the ban should cover both paid and unpaid advertising. One of the key recommendations we make in our brief that was submitted to the committee is that the legislation should also cover referrals. We know that these kind of informal referrals and this insidious network is largely how conversion therapy spreads. Typically, conversion therapy goes by different names and it's not necessarily publicly advertised. It's important to make sure that those who were referring LGBTQ2 individuals to individuals or organizations that will cause them harm are also covered by the bill.