Justice Committee on Oct. 27th, 2020

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay, perfect.

Are we at amendment NDP-1, which proposes subsection 60(2.1), or my first amendment?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

NDP-1 was withdrawn by Mr. MacGregor. We are now looking at your amendment that you sent in emails to everybody at the beginning of the meeting today.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay.

My amendment concerns subsection 2(2) of Bill C-3, which amends section 60 of the Judges Act.

Here's what the bill proposes to add to the legislation:

(3) The Council shall ensure that seminars on matters related to sexual assault law ...

I propose that “shall ensure” be replaced by “should ensure”.

All the amendments that I proposed stem from the testimony of the two judges who appeared before the committee and whose names I can't find. One judge is a former chief justice of Nova Scotia. These judges urged us to be careful when wording proposals and to not be overly directive with regard to the judges and the Canadian Judicial Council. Instead, they encouraged us to include in the text an invitation to the council to consider certain items regarding the content of the seminars. I think that it makes sense to show restraint. That's why I'm proposing these changes.

Here, “The Council shall ensure that” would be replaced by “The Council should ensure that”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

I'm going to quickly turn to Philippe to guide us on what the impact of these amendments would be, and also to see if they're in order.

[Philippe Méla]

I won't comment on the impact; that would be more of a legal question that the department may weigh in on. In terms of procedural admissibility, they're fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Maloney, I see your hand raised.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I support the amendment that Mr. Fortin has proposed and agree with everything he has said. One of the things that we need to consider in the backs of our minds in every amendment we're discussing today is the concept of judicial independence. This amendment Mr. Fortin has proposed, as he pointed out, was encouraged by the Canadian Judicial Council and other representative groups, as it goes some way to preserving that very important concept. I agree with him wholeheartedly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

Not seeing any more hands raised, I will call the question.

Shall the amendment moved by Mr. Fortin pass? It seeks to amend clause 2 on page 2, line 32, replacing “the Council shall” with “the Council should”.

Mr. Clerk, I'll ask you to please record the vote.

[The Clerk]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you for that, Mr. Clerk. The amendment proposed by Mr. Fortin carries.

We will move on to amendment PV-2.

I will turn to Mrs. Atwin to speak to amendment PV-2 at this time.

[Jenica Atwin, Green, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you again, Madam Chair.

This amendment would propose a change to include:

persons, groups and organizations that support them, including Indigenous leaders and representatives of Indigenous communities;

We cannot ignore the prevalence of sexual violence and its impacts on indigenous, Métis and Inuit women. We believe it essential that the section explicitly mention the need for involvement of indigenous leaders and representatives in the development of these seminars.

The proposed amendment is also consistent with the spirit of the calls to action emanating from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the report from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls.

Once again, I do not wish to hold things up in any way. I appreciate your consideration of this amendment. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

I don't see any hands raised to speak to amendment PV-2, so I'll call the question.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas, 6; nays 5)

The amendment is carried.

We'll now go to amendment PV-3.

Ms. Atwin, would you like to speak to PV-3?

[Jenica Atwin, Green, Fredericton, NB]

It is similar to an amendment that was already voted down, but it does include the concept of gender identity, and I still wish to be on the record for advocating that this be included.

Thank you very much for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

I see the hand raised by the legislative clerk.

[Philippe Méla]

Mr. Fortin has an amendment just before amendment PV-3.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Yes, you are right. Thank you for that.

Mr. Virani, is that why you have your hand raised? Are you speaking to anything specific?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

No, it was to speak to the amendment PV-2 or PV-3 at this point, but I'll defer to the clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Virani.

We are now moving to an amendment from the floor by Mr. Fortin, which seeks to amend clause 2, page 3, line 3, and it seeks to add “where the Council finds appropriate”.

Mr. Fortin, do you want to speak to that, please?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

This follows the same logic that I outlined earlier, Madam Chair. The idea is to not be overly directive in this regard, in order to maintain judicial independence.

I don't want to talk about this for 10 minutes. In any event, the amendment is clear. I propose that “where the Council finds appropriate” be added.

If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them. I just don't want to take time for nothing.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.

Mr. Maloney, I see your hand is raised.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Fortin said virtually the same thing that I was going to say, so I am fully in support. This amendment is consistent with the amendment we just adopted that he put forward a minute ago for reasons that he explained.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Maloney

I don't see any more hands raised, so I'll call the question.

Shall the amendment proposed by Mr. Fortin carry?

Mr. Clerk, would you please record the vote?

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. The amendment as proposed by Monsieur Fortin is carried.

We now move to PV-3.

Mrs. Atwin, would you like to speak to PV-3?

[Jenica Atwin, Green, Fredericton, NB]

Just in relation to social context, which includes systemic racism and systemic discrimination, including seminars established, I ask that it include systemic oppression and intersectionality as a dynamic that plays in the perpetuation of sexual violence.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mrs. Atwin.

I don't see any hands raised to speak to—oh, go ahead, Mr. Virani.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Madam Chair, I appreciate Mrs. Atwin's involvement here.

In terms of this specific enumeration, in terms of what she has listed here, I think I'd raise a few points.

One is that the seminars in question relate specifically to the sexual assault seminars provision of the bill. I think it's important that we have the legislation and the flexibility that's provided to the judges in order to shape the seminars as they see fit, and I think introducing this kind of language would not be appropriate in this context.

It is also pretty apparent that various different provinces approach this with different resources and with different approaches, and given that a lot of these eventual adjudications will occur at the provincial bench, that is something we should keep in mind, so I think leaving it open would be more prudent than enumerating this particular language in this context.

Thank you.