Justice Committee on Oct. 27th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Virani.

Not seeing any more hands raised, I'll call the question.

Shall PV-3 carry?

Mr. Clerk, would you please go ahead and record the vote?

(Amendment negatived: nays 11; yeas 0)

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. PV-3 stands defeated.

Not seeing any more amendments to clause 2, we'll now vote on clause 2 as amended.

Mr. Clerk, would you please record the vote?

(Clause 2 as amended agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Clerk, and so clause 2 carries.

(On clause 3)

Now moving on to clause 3, before we go to LIB-3, my understanding is that Monsieur Fortin's proposed amendment comes before it in the order by line. Mr. Fortin's amendment for clause 3 seeks to amend page 3, line 11, replacing “shall” with “should” on that line.

Monsieur Fortin, the floor is yours to speak to your amendment.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

My amendment follows the same logic as my earlier proposal. We don't want to be directive with regard to the council by ordering it to submit a report in a systematic manner. We simply want to say that “the Council should submit to the Minister”. There will then be a report from the council. This is out of deference to the judiciary.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Monsieur Fortin. I'm not seeing any hands raised to speak to this—oh, go ahead, Mr. Virani.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Just so I'm crystal clear, Madam Chair, the amendment would be just to line 11, which now reads “...the Council shall submit to the Minister...” It would read instead, “...the Council should submit to the Minister....”

That's what we're voting on, correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

That is my understanding. Can I just get confirmation from the clerk on this? Philippe, is that correct?

[Philippe Méla]

Yes, indeed, you are right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you for that.

Mr. MacGregor, did you want to speak to this amendment also?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes, sorry. It was the same question. It's just replacing “shall” with “should”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

It's just the one word, yes. Thank you. In that case, I'll call the question.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Madam Chair, I want to clarify something.

I realize that, in the version that I sent you, the English version doesn't match the French version. The English version says “the Council should submit”, whereas the French version says “le ministre demande au Conseil”. These are two different things.

Personally, this English version works for me. I don't know whether my colleague Mr. Virani agreed with this version. He's the person who worked with me on this issue. I agree with the use of the word “should”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.

Just for clarity, Mr. Clerk, and to the analyst, can we make that requisite translation into French and change the “shall” to “should”?

I'll call the question at this time.

Shall the amendment proposed by Monsieur Fortin carry?

Mr. Clerk, I'll ask you to record the vote, please.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. The amendment proposed by Monsieur Fortin carries.

We'll now go to amendment LIB-3, which has been proposed by Mr. Battiste.

Mr. Battiste, could you speak to it, please?

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll start off by saying that this amendment is very similar to the amendment raised by my colleague Greg Fergus in his advocacy on behalf of the Black caucus. I very much appreciate in our deliberations between the Black caucus and the indigenous caucus that there's an opportunity here with this amendment. Canadians expect that judges have the necessary training to understand the complex nature of unconscious bias and how intercultural competency can impact judicial rulings, much like they expect judges to understand how myths around sexual assault and consent can impact their rulings. While we all understand that justice is blind, it's no secret that racialized Canadians face systemic racism in our judicial system.

We need equally systemic solutions to change that. Education is key in combatting unconscious bias. It's something that was spoken to in the TRC calls to action, as well as the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls group.

Just a few days ago, The Globe and Mail published an in-depth investigation on Black and indigenous Canadians in the justice system, where according to the most recent census, indigenous and Black people accounted for 4.8% and 3.5% of the Canadian population, but according to Statistics Canada, they made up 25% and 8.7% of those in federal prisons. Ensuring that judges have training related to systemic racism and discrimination is important, and I think Bill C-3 provides us with an opportunity for jurisdictions to do their part in our country's effort to respond to those studies.

When we talked about social context, this is what I felt was Mr. Fergus' intervention, and the amendment gave clarity to what that social context is. We have an opportunity in this committee to take those important steps on reconciliation and on our commitment to addressing systemic racism as well, and while respecting the original intent of the bill, to make it clear what is meant by social context.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Battiste.

I don't see anybody on the speakers' list, so I will call the question at this time.

Mr. Clerk, could you please record the vote?

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10, nays 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you, Mr. Clerk.

From the floor, Monsieur Fortin seeks to amend clause 3, on page 3, at line 14, by replacing the word “must” in that line with the word “should”.

Monsieur Fortin, would you like to speak to that?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Yes

The French version says “Le ministre fait déposer un exemplaire du rapport devant chaque chambre du Parlement”, whereas the English version says “The Minister shall cause a copy of the report”. The idea is to replace the word “the” with the word “any” in the English version.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Monsieur Fortin, just to seek clarity, are you talking about line 14 at this time?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

No, I'm on line...Oh yes, sorry. On line 14, it's about the word “should”. It's the same thing as earlier. The word “must” is replaced by “should”.

Sorry. I thought that we were at the next amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Virani, is your hand raised to speak on this amendment?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Yes. It's effectively the same issue as before, and perhaps Mr. Fortin or peut-être le greffier could assist us. The change that's being asked for on the English side is very clear.

Perhaps we could just clarify the change that would then be made on the French side, because I don't see the directive language as clearly written en français, but it's not my langue maternelle, so maybe I'm just not reading it correctly.

Maybe the clerk could advise us what language needs to be put on the French side to make it discretionary rather than directive.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Virani.

Mr. Clerk or the analyst, if you can...?

[Philippe Méla]

I can answer this question, Madam Chair.

In the French version, there is no need to have a change to replace the second “should”, because it's already included in the first one. In French it says, “dans lequel il précise”. It's the report that we're talking about, the one that is being submitted. That's a loose translation of it, if you want.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

This is also my understanding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin. Thank you, Mr. Clerk, for that clarity.

I will call the question now at this time for Monsieur Fortin's proposed amendment to amend clause 3, page 3, line 14, to replace “must” with “should” in that line.

Mr. Clerk, please record the vote.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The amendment as proposed by Monsieur Fortin is carried.

Monsieur Fortin, you have the next amendment as well. You can discuss it before we go to vote on the whole clause. Your next amendment, in my understanding, is to clause 3, page 3, line 20. You had inadvertently spoken to it earlier, so I will ask you to continue. What you are proposing is to replace the word “the” with “any” in the context of speaking about a report.

Go ahead, Monsieur Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

As far as I'm concerned, the French version seems correct. The English version may create some confusion. Again, I spoke with Mr. Virani earlier about the topic. He can provide clarification if necessary.

The idea is simple. If a report is tabled, the minister must table it in each House. This is said correctly in French, but perhaps not in English. Since my English isn't as good as the English of my honourable colleagues on the committee, they can decide for themselves. The idea is that, if a report is submitted to the minister, it must be tabled in Parliament.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

I see the legislative clerk's hand is up.