Justice Committee on May 11th, 2021

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

We have very little time here.

I'm going to ask a question about training. What are the requirements in most long-term care homes for personal support worker training? Do you feel those are adequate?

[Melissa Miller]

I couldn't answer that if I wanted to, because it's so variable across even Ontario, let alone Canada. That's the problem. There isn't any standardized training.

That is fundamental to improving care across the board. There needs to be training. There needs to be licensing of these workers and they need to be paid properly. They need to be paid in accordance with their counterparts in acute care in hospitals.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Garrison.

We'll now go to our second round of questions, starting with Mr. Moore for five minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for appearing here today.

To the Canadian Centre for Elder Law, this is an important issue at the best of times, and we know with COVID and lockdowns, and everything that we've experienced over the last year, in many cases, it's made bad situations worse.

You have provided a lot of support and resources for seniors, and we've been talking a bit about the impacts of COVID.

I want to speak about something a little different. It's about the targeting of seniors through scams. It's so commonplace now. I mentioned to the committee last week that I received a call that was clearly a scam. People are getting these calls non-stop. We know that seniors are specifically targeted. We know that they wouldn't be doing these scams if some people weren't falling for them.

Can you speak to some of your experiences, maybe the advice that you give and how you're supporting seniors for protection against scams?

[Krista James]

Thank you for that question, Mr. Moore.

We developed a series of resources called “Be a Savvy Senior”, which are available in English and French. They include French-language and English-language animated videos, and also a series of fact sheets.

One thing we try to emphasize the most—we don't provide individual assistance; we provide high-level tools that front-line providers can share with seniors—is that seniors are not being approached for cons because they are gullible. I think there's a lot of tendency out there to treat seniors like they're easy marks because they are not educated enough or they're more gullible than younger folks, which is all mythology. I've been caught, and you were almost caught, right? Con artists are very sophisticated.

We encourage seniors to get more information so that they can help problem solve how to respond. Generally the best tip, when you're being scammed or you think it's a scam, is to not respond, because saying anything puts you at risk of sharing your personal information.

Honestly, seniors and younger people need the same basic information about how to protect themselves from abuse by con artists.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Did anyone else want to comment on that before I move on to my next question?

Thank you, Ms. James. I appreciate that.

Is there any suggestion now on how those scammers could be better targeted? I know it's frustrating for police, because many times these are international in nature.

Do you, or any of our panellists today, have any suggestions? Should we be doing more, as parliamentarians? Should government be doing more to target those scammers?

[Krista James]

I think when it comes to scamming, as when it comes to other forms of elder abuse, one key thing is to provide better resourcing to the RCMP, to support robust training and response in communities across Canada. Smaller communities are often less resourced than larger communities.

If you are experiencing a scam that involves under a certain amount, you won't be able to talk to a person. Often you're directed to a website, or you have to follow a certain number of links and put information in. It's not a very helpful or accessible way to provide information on your experience, and it's not a very elder-friendly way to support people to get help.

What seniors need is in-person attendance by RCMP to find out what happened and to support them with their problem. Those relationships in community are what help seniors be safer.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you.

I see that the chair has informed me that my time is just about up.

Thank you, all, for your participation here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Moore. I appreciate that.

We'll now go to Mr. Maloney for five minutes.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses. It's been very informative.

I'm going to pick up on something that Ms. Miller said earlier. You referenced nurses who are overworked, underpaid. They go home at the end of the day knowing they're not doing their job properly. The reasons for that have become more widely apparent as a result of the pandemic, even though they were apparent to some before the pandemic, as you pointed out.

One of the things that's become well known in the last 12 months is that homes that were operated privately seem to have higher COVID incident rates than those that are operated municipally or by other levels of government. I'm wondering what your comment is on that.

In your experience pre-pandemic, given that you've been doing this type of work for some time, does the COVID example extend to other areas of the level of care in those homes across the board? If the answer to that is yes, which I gather it is, what are your views going forward on private versus public long term care homes?

[Melissa Miller]

Absolutely, yes. COVID has highlighted what has already been true in the public versus private. I can tell you that from the Toronto, Ontario experience, our councillors voted I think unanimously to put the additional funding into the municipally run homes, as an example, to come up to the four hours of direct care per day. That is one of the reasons municipally run homes are usually run very well in comparison to for-profit homes.

Again, speaking of the Ontario example, although I know this is true in other provinces, the funding structures are different, but the funding that comes from taxpayers that goes to care is not the portion of funding that for-profit homes are allowed to derive a profit from. It is the portion of funding that is to go to hospitality that is the portion where for-profit companies are allowed to derive a profit.

In this pandemic we saw that older homes with four persons per room—we call them ward-style homes—are the ones that had some of the worst outbreaks. It is not a coincidence that most of those homes are owned by for-profit companies. They were the only parties willing to buy these old buildings and turn them into long-term care homes. They didn't have to do anything to get people in them because our wait-lists are so exorbitantly long. They did not use the hospitality funds or profits to modernize the homes and make them safer for residents. Instead, they mortgaged these properties to the hilt, and paid out dividends to shareholders.

I think it's pretty clear where you can see I stand on these issues. Profit has no place in care, and I take that from the final report of the long-term care commission in Ontario that was just released on April 30 by Justice Marrocco.

We've seen some issues across the board, but the evidence is very clear that the for-profit homes have the worst care, for the most part.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

You've answered my next question. I was going to ask you to give us a list of your takeaways from reading that report because I know you've probably read it cover to cover by now.

I'm running out of time, so I'm going to ask you and the others a question, or maybe you could send us the answer to that question in writing. What are your takeaways from that? What do we need to know for the purposes of our study and from a criminal law perspective? That would be helpful.

[Melissa Miller]

Absolutely.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

My question is for you and the others. We're talking about specific crimes in the Criminal Code, like failure to provide the necessities of life, etc. There are provisions in the Criminal Code that would provide police the authority to charge these homes and the people who run these homes now, but it's just not happening. Why?

I'm not sure the Children's Aid Society example is on a par with this for reasons I don't have time to get into, but my question is this. The crimes in the Criminal Code that exist now don't apply just to seniors. Are there other jurisdictions in the United States or around the world you can point to that have laws that address the issues we're talking about that are tailored towards seniors?

[Krista James]

I'll say something, Mr. Maloney, because it looks as though no one else is going to speak.

There are certainly U.S. jurisdictions that have some relevant similar legislation. That's why we recommend some comparative research into the experience of the U.S., so we can build on what has worked. I think we really need to do that robust comparative analysis.

Many of those provisions are still age neutral. They attach to vulnerable victims, not so much based on an age, although some American states do have legislation that specifically deals with only those over age 60 or over age 65.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

We'll now move to our next questioner, Mr. Fortin, for two and a half minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Either Ms. Bérard or Ms. Marcoux raised some important points earlier, specifically, ways to better protect seniors and community monitors, if you will, who bring the abuse to light. I would like you to talk more about that.

What should these efforts look like? What can we do to better protect seniors who speak up about abuse? Perhaps a community monitor tells you that their neighbour, customer or whoever it might be is being abused.

How can we better protect those seniors?

[Stéphanie Bérard]

As I said, few, if any, shelters exist for seniors who suffer from elder abuse. Shelters are needed so seniors have someplace to go to get out of the abusive situation. Shelters provide abused seniors with safe accommodations. Shelters are an excellent solution, similar to youth protection service centres or sexual assault centres for women.

Although some centres do exist, they aren't tailored to seniors' needs. A senior who has reduced mobility can't stay in a facility where they would need to climb stairs or access two floors.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I understand. I'm going quickly because I don't have a lot of time.

[Stéphanie Bérard]

Yes, of course.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I want to ask you about something else.

There has been a lot of focus on measures the government could take to prevent abuse. For example, amendments could be made to the Criminal Code, but not necessarily to send the abuser to jail, since they are often a close friend or relative.

Do you have any suggestions? What should the government do to stop elder abuse but not necessarily send the abuser to jail? Of course, in some cases, that is necessary.

What would you recommend?

[Stéphanie Bérard]

In the case of sexual or physical violence, criminal penalties are certainly appropriate. However, when the abuse is psychological, therapy is available to people who—