Justice Committee on June 8th, 2021

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I do, yes.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, Ms. Reid should put her boom up a little higher. It's quite low. Maybe that'll help.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

That's an excellent suggestion, Madam Findlay.

Ms. Reid, do you want to try a sound test? Speak as loud as you can.

[Jessica Reid]

Is that better?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I think we're going to hand you off to the experts, who are better at this than we are. Maybe one of our technicians can call you.

We'll suspend for two minutes while we figure this out.

Don't go too far, folks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I call this meeting back to order.

We are now going into a round of questions by Mr. Maloney, for six minutes.

Mr. Maloney, go ahead.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Madam. I have just started my timer.

First of all, I thank both witnesses.

Mr. Berkes, I was starting to think you were a committee member and not a witness, as you've been here so frequently. I say that kiddingly, of course, but really as an expression of gratitude because your evidence every time, and today is no exception, has been very helpful. Thank you for that. I know how hard it is to give up time to do this.

Ms. Reid, thank you for coming today and for being the champion of an issue that is, to say the least, incredibly challenging. You are a lone voice on an issue that doesn't get a lot of support, but it's gaining more momentum thanks to you.

Other members of the committee might not know this, but Ms. Reid, as part of her effort to try to raise awareness on this, has prior to the pandemic made an annual pilgrimage to Ottawa from Toronto, which doesn't sound that impressive until you learn that she did it on foot. She did it several years in a row to try to raise awareness and raise money for the issue. Thank you for everything you're doing. It has been challenging.

One of the reasons it's challenging is that we're talking about victims and their rights. People automatically associate victims with people who have been the victim of a crime, but “victim” has a broader definition. If you look at the definition of “victim” in this legislation, in my view—and you don't have to convince me—it should also include the children of people who have committed crimes. That's why you are here today.

The problem with that is it automatically has a negative connotation, because somehow you're on the wrong side of an issue, and I understand that. When we talk about giving special rights to special crimes, for example, and other related things, to me that focuses on the crime and not the people, and it's the people we need to focus on. That's what you are doing with your cause.

What do you have to say to the people who say we shouldn't be even talking about families of people who have committed crimes as part of this discussion?

[Jessica Reid]

I hear you. Including children of incarcerated parents or those who have parents who come into conflict with the law is not to take away from those who are direct victims, but actually to understand and to be more encompassing in terms of the label of “victim” and how it's defined in this bill. By recognizing the impact that it has on the children, we will actually strengthen and help to reduce crime in the future. That will help the healing that does exist and needs to occur, so that we can change the statistics that currently are plaguing our country.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

That's good. Thank you.

One of the big issues we face is to try to do exactly what you just said, and that's to stop repeat offenders and try to stop things at the source. In my opinion, this would be a good example of that.

Mr. Berkes, I'm curious to know what you think of the idea of including this group of people within the definition of “victim” in the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights.

[Jody Berkes]

Madam Chair, generally speaking, my comments are less related to overall concepts and more to the functionality, but in terms of the question that has been asked, it's a really important one.

At the end of the day, my personal view, which I'll insert here, is that everyone involved in the criminal justice system, from the judge down to the jurors down to the alleged victims down to the defendants, is a human being. Government needs to understand the toll that the system takes on all the parties: judges, jurors, Crown prosecutors, defence lawyers, complainants and defendants. I am all for trying to assist whomever is involved in the system with the type of supports that will help them recover from whatever trauma they faced as a result of the alleged offence: the defendants from the trauma they faced that caused them to commit the offence, and the jurors and people who work in the system who have to observe the aftermaths of the offence.

To answer the question directly, yes, I would support expanding supports by including children of defendants as victims.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

I think it's important, too, because one of the aspects of the word “victim” in this context is innocence, whether it's stated or implied. I think the children of the people we're talking about are clearly in that category.

To go back to you, Ms. Reid, much of the time you're dealing with children of single parents. Can you explain the greater impact it has when you're dealing with a child whose only parent has been incarcerated—a child who is completely innocent and has played no part in the crime whatsoever?

[Jessica Reid]

In terms of children whose parents are involved in the justice system, for many children sometimes both parents are, so they end up in foster care, which also magnifies the effect, but even in a single-parent household they experience financial strain in the home, so there's a lot of emotional stress that children have to face and go through.

Many of them are living in communities where there are limited resources to support them as they navigate the challenges in our systems: formal education systems, our health care system and our justice system. It's so important to recognize the ripple effects that this has on the children and on the family as a whole. By recognizing the impact that it has and by connecting them to resources, we can actually help to break that cycle, which is so very important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Maloney.

We'll now go to Mr. Fortin for six minutes.

Please go ahead, sir.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to Ms. Reid and Mr. Berkes for being here this morning.

Mr. Berkes, it's true that we see you often, but it's always a pleasure to have you.

Ms. Reid, I didn't realize what a trekker you were. I was very impressed to learn that you have walked from Toronto to Ottawa several times.

Ms. Reid, I'm also impressed by the fact that you work on the issue of children with incarcerated parents. That's not an easy subject, and I was moved when I learned that because I believe our justice system often forgets these people.

That being said, kids with incarcerated parents are one thing, but I'd also like you to tell us about the parents of incarcerated children.

Is that an issue that you address? Does your clientele—if I may use the term—include parents of incarcerated children?

[Jessica Reid]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Yes, that is very much a group of individuals whom we also need to care about. In terms of the work we do at KIP Canada, our focus is on the children and the youth and, by extension, their families. Certainly, for families whose children become involved in the justice system, we also need to support the parents.

I think that when it involves the children, there's an extra level of trauma and stress that is put on them when their parents are inside, but we must also recognize the impact that anyone's involvement in the justice system has on the family as a whole, including parents.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

What services do you think these people mainly need? We immediately think of psychological support, since it's just as traumatic to be the parent of an incarcerated person as to be the child of an incarcerated person.

I imagine people suffer significant economic losses in both cases. From what I hear, they need legal advice in order to know their rights. We know they're entitled to intervene in trials, but do they understand at what stage they're entitled to do that? How does it work?

Do you think these indirect victims of crime get reasonably good guidance? Are they clearly informed of their rights, and are they offered enough support?

[Jessica Reid]

Currently in Canada, children and families affected by the justice system are underserved. There are not the supports needed, and this is where we need to invest resources.

In terms of the specific types of support, I agree that counselling is very important. Also, because of the stigma that is associated with having a parent involved in the justice system, children feel as if they are the only one. Connecting them to other peers and having peer support groups and mentorship are key, so that we can help to foster academic success and employment as they navigate and grow up. It's very important.

Also, I think that they need to be included and have their voices heard at all stages of the justice system, when we are making decisions that impact them.

Lastly, we know how important it is for children to have contact with their parents. If we are talking about rehabilitating the family unit, and if it is the desire of the child to have that contact, we need to make sure we are creating opportunities to facilitate it and to reduce the barriers. Currently, there are many barriers to that.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

How do you think the system could be improved? How can we ensure that these victims are better supported and better informed of their rights? Should the ombudsman provide services, or should the Crown prosecutor do it during the trial? How should that aid be structured?

[Jessica Reid]

I think it needs to be a collaborative approach. We need to work together in our system. Some support needs to happen at the community level, through organizations like ours, because of the stigma. I think the justice system needs to be a part directly, in terms of advocating for their rights, but it needs to be a collaborative approach.

The needs are diverse and they intersect all systems. We need to work together and take more of a holistic approach in supporting the children.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Who currently provides this legal advice and these resources? I think it's the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime. Is that correct?

[Jessica Reid]

This is not my area of expertise. From my experience with the kids we support, they have not had legal representation in any of their cases in terms of their rights.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Are you occasionally asked to support these people during the judicial process by explaining to them what will happen, for example, and telling them they have a right to make a statement in court and to testify? Does that support exist? Is it you who offers it?

Perhaps it doesn't exist.

[Jessica Reid]

To my understanding, it doesn't exist. We as an organization are always looking to expand our support so that we can improve outcomes and increase and protect the rights of the children and youth we support. That is something we would be open to, for sure.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

My time is up.

Thank you, Ms. Reid.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Ms. Reid.

Mr. Garrison, please go ahead for six minutes.