Evidence of meeting #13 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was community.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Unfortunately, Mr. Fortin, I don't have consent to extend the meeting.
On my clock, it was 12 o'clock, so we're—
3 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
You are right, Mr. Chair.
However, I suggest that, at the next meeting, instead of giving two five-minute rounds to the first speakers, you give them two three-minute rounds so that Mr. Garrison and I have a minute and a half or two minutes left. Obviously, the allocation of time is not fair.
3 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
I'll do my best, but I'm always very liberal with you, Monsieur Fortin.
3 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
3 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
Since the witnesses are still here, if it's only me, I'll stay for five minutes.
3 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Are we good? If I see nodding of heads, I'll do that really quickly.
Sure, let's continue.
Monsieur Fortin, you have two and a half minutes.
3 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Ka Hon Chu, I would like to ask you two brief questions.
During your testimony, I saw you reading notes. There were references to certain provisions of the Criminal Code or to other legislation. Would it be possible to obtain a copy of your notes or the brief you used to testify?
I'll ask you my second question right away.
You've talked a lot about decriminalization, whereas Bill C‑5 is more about a diversionary process. In other words, drug offences are still criminal offences, but they can be treated alongside the judicial system as a health issue.
Can you tell me if you support diversion, or would you like to see decriminalization altogether?
3 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Monsieur Fortin, it looks like she's not on the screen.
Mr. Clerk, I don't know if you can....
Ms. Ka Hon Chu is not, I believe—
April 29th, 2022 / 3 p.m.
The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Jean-François Pagé
No, she has disconnected. She's gone.
3 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Okay, sir, I will take the last about a minute, I guess.
So I'm going to go to Mr. Tachie.
Mr. Tachie, you mentioned a young black boy who was arrested and forced to sit in the gravel in handcuffs. I obviously find that unacceptable. It is totally unreasonable. That is not the society we want to live in.
The question that comes to mind is this. Is this related to the issue of mandatory minimum sentences or is it because a police officer, perhaps because of racism or for some unknown reason, made an unnecessary and abusive arrest?
3 p.m.
President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers
It's both.
The first issue is if Black bodies are over-surveilled and over-policed, you're going to swoop in a number of people who are then going to be subject to the vagaries of the criminal justice system.
In my example, but for an intercession by somebody who got me out of that system, I was arrested as a gang member. If I'm labelled as a gang member and then if somebody in that group had a gun and we have concepts like party liability and things like that.... What I'm trying to get at is you've just pulled somebody into criminal justice who, for all intents and purposes, probably has a bright future. Now you're adding labels to that person. That impacts them going forward.
You're impacting the trajectories of people, regardless of the potential they have and regardless of whether they have the ability to speak for themselves. As a 15- or 16-year-old, I didn't have the ability to articulate my position the same way I can today. I didn't understand what I was involved in.
3:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Mr. Tachie.
Now we'll have two and half minutes with Mr. Garrison.
3:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to return to the Association of Black Lawyers for a final question.
This bill is prospective. It talks about eliminating things in the future. Certainly in the community at large, and in particular in the Black community, lots of people already have criminal records for personal possession of drugs. I wonder if either of our witnesses could speak to the role of the expungement of those records in promoting rehabilitation, preventing reoffending and keeping communities safe.
3:05 p.m.
Secretary, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers
Absolutely. Expunging a record gives an individual hope. It gives an individual opportunities for the future. I, for example, am a public servant. With a criminal record, that may be possible, but without one, it absolutely is. I have the ability to get security clearance and to travel freely. I have the ability to operate without scrutiny.
To a large extent, having a criminal record impedes individuals in their simple, basic efforts to maintain a life, to obtain proper housing and to maintain adequate employment. A criminal record is an incredible deterrent. Studies show that with a criminal record, a Black person is actually four times less likely to be selected for an interview, much less obtain employment, which is significant within the Black community.
3:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Can I ask one quick question about diversion?
This bill offers more power to police to make decisions on diversion. Some concerns have been expressed that, in the absence of police reform, this may not have the intended impact.
3:05 p.m.
Secretary, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers
Yes, we share that concern. We would like to see, whenever there is discretion, parameters on how that discretion is to be utilized. We would like to see guidelines and appropriate training. The Canadian Association of Black Lawyers is very willing to stand with the government around how and what to train, and what issues and factors need to be considered in the exercise of discretion.
As I've said earlier, the exercise of discretion usually disfavours the Black community. Whenever something is discretionary, we want to see strict guidelines around how that discretion is exercised.
3:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much for the extra time, Mr. Chair.
3:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Mr. Garrison.
Thank you to all the witnesses once again. Thank you to all the members in the House for patiently waiting a few minutes longer.
The meeting is now adjourned.