Evidence of meeting #25 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was services.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Markita Kaulius  President, Families For Justice
Jennifer Gold  Lawyer and Director of the Board, Women's Law Association of Ontario
Holly Lucier  Paralegal, Families For Justice
Emilie Coyle  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Jaymie-Lyne Hancock  National President, Mothers Against Drunk Driving
Steve Sullivan  Director of Victim Services, Mothers Against Drunk Driving

5:10 p.m.

President, Families For Justice

Markita Kaulius

I can guarantee you that the accused has more rights than the victim. When we go to court, we're allowed to read a victim impact statement. We have to keep it very brief, but then it is handed in before we actually go, if you're fortunate enough to get a trial. The accused and the defence lawyer get to read our victim impact statement before we're allowed to read it in court. If they don't like anything in there, they can ask that it be removed, as well.

We don't have any rights in court, and our loved ones don't have any rights in court. I was told by a lawyer that, basically, because my daughter was only 22—she wasn't married, and didn't have any dependants—her life in the eyes of the court was worth zero. I was told that by a lawyer. I also asked a lawyer to request a 10-year sentence because my daughter was murdered by this [Inaudible—Editor]. I was told that, basically, a judge would laugh at us, and say, “That's not going to happen.”

When I say there are no rights for victims, I mean that sincerely. I hope that will change in the future, but that's the way it currently is in our criminal justice system.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I certainly hope that will change, as well. It needs to change.

We just have a few seconds, Ms. Lucier. Did you want to add anything on how that makes you feel as a victim?

5:15 p.m.

Paralegal, Families For Justice

Holly Lucier

It felt like a betrayal by my own Constitution. I felt that I have no rights. My daughter and family have no rights, but the offender does.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I want you to know there are people here who are fighting for you.

5:15 p.m.

Paralegal, Families For Justice

Holly Lucier

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

Next we have Mr. Naqvi for three minutes.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

I also want to start by thanking all of you for being here and sharing your very painful experiences. We very much appreciate that.

I also want to talk about the issue of victim impact statements. I'll ask all of you to take a very short time to share with us their usefulness or lack thereof.

In your view, how can we improve victim impact statements, so that they can allow for victims and their families to be able to express themselves in the matters before the courts?

Why don't we start with you, Ms. Lucier?

5:15 p.m.

Paralegal, Families For Justice

Holly Lucier

I think victim impact statements have to be one of the hardest statements to write. You're essentially given an essay assignment that outlines your restrictions, how you have to write it and the time frame that you have. You're trying to compress your life experience into a victim impact statement. There are so many rules around the writing of it that it becomes more and more impersonal as you go along. It has to be tailored to the courts, so you're not really hearing the true victim impact statement, because it's been vetted by the Crown. It's been edited so many times that it becomes such a cold and sterile experience.

I think that where victim impact statements are concerned, they should hold more weight in court. I know that's not possible, but for the amount of writing that people do and the amount of heart that people put into their statements.... They believe that it's going to impact sentencing. Again, it's sort of a misconstrued statement. You think that you're writing for your loved one and it's going to make a difference but, really, all that matters is case law.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you.

Ms. Gold, do you have any thoughts?

5:15 p.m.

Lawyer and Director of the Board, Women's Law Association of Ontario

Jennifer Gold

I have concerns that the victim impact statement is being edited to that extent, and that's the experience faced by survivors.

I think victims need a greater voice and standing in the court process. I mentioned the option to become a third party. That way, they can have more involvement in the entire process from start to finish, and not just be submitting a statement at the end that gets vetted.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

I have just a moment left.

Ms. Kaulius, do you have any further thoughts on how victim impact statements could be improved?

5:15 p.m.

President, Families For Justice

Markita Kaulius

I sincerely wish that they were considered. Most of the time, the plea deals have already been decided on and the sentencing range has already been decided on. People spend hours writing and rewriting this, and then it is taken and briefly read. Does it make a difference? I don't know that it does in sentencing. I don't think so. I say that because of such low sentences that we have seen.

We've seen for fatalities one day in jail, 90 days to be served on weekends only, a $1,500 fine and seven weekends in jail. These are all for fatalities. It's ridiculous what's being given out in our courts. Nobody's held accountable anymore for their actions at all, it seems.

Families are retraumatized. It's not only the experience of losing their loved ones, the death of their loved ones, but then going through the court system and finding out the sentences are so low. It basically says to that family, “Your loved one really didn't matter in the eyes of the Canadian criminal justice system.”

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Naqvi.

Thank you, Ms. Kaulius.

That concludes the first panel of our meeting.

We'll suspend for two minutes, and then we'll resume with the new panellists on. Those of you who are on otherwise can stay on virtually or turn your cameras off, but we'll do a quick shift change.

Thanks.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

We will resume the meeting.

Next we have two witnesses. From the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies, we have Emilie Coyle; and from Mothers Against Drunk Driving, we have Jaymie-Lyne Hancock and Steve Sullivan

I will give the first five minutes to Emilie Coyle.

5:20 p.m.

Emilie Coyle Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies

Thank you.

Thank you again to the committee for having me here today.

As you probably already know, as I've been here before, the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies works to address the persistent ways in which women and gender-diverse people who are criminalized are routinely denied their humanity and excluded from considerations of community.

Our head office is located on the unceded and unsurrendered Algonquin Anishinabe territory in what is colonially known as Ottawa.

I suppose I would like to begin by stating the obvious. This is not an easy topic to discuss, and I don't need to tell all of you that it is both nuanced and complex. To be a victim of certain types of harm is to be followed by an anguish and a grief that do not go away.

Our family has first-hand experience with the pain that is characterized here as victimhood. My cousin was murdered in a gruesome and violent manner here in Ottawa, and more than a decade after her death, we are still impacted by the loss of her in our lives.

In my current professional capacity as the executive director of a national organization that works with and on behalf of people who are in federal prisons designated for women, I am acutely aware that their stories and their lives do not fit neatly into the box of perpetrator or victim, as they are often both, but they are not the people we traditionally see as model or perfect victims. They are poor. They suffer from mental health disabilities. They are not white. They have been harmed by other people and by systems their whole lives with little to no recourse for that harm. They are survivors of violence many times over and rarely, if ever, have had the support or therapy for the harms they have suffered.

In conversation with one of the executive directors of a local Elizabeth Fry Society when discussing the provision of therapeutic supports for the people who use her services, she asked me, “Where does one start when the incidents of victimization are so numerous?”

The myth that there is a clear binary distinction between who is a victim and who is a perpetrator of a crime is ever-present in the work we do. Most people in prison have experienced substantial adverse events in childhood and adulthood. For example, if you look to the Office of the Correctional Investigator's research, it has shown that at least half of the people in federal prisons have a history of childhood physical, sexual and/or emotional abuse, and those numbers are even higher in the prisons designated for women.

By creating a narrative that portrays a false binary between those who experience violence, we are encouraging a system and a culture that does not adopt an informed or responsible analysis of harm. For example—and this is a key one for us—the majority of street-level crime is inflicted by poor people on other poor people. A solution is not to incarcerate these people in a violent place like a prison. The solution is to ensure that there are no more poor people by eradicating poverty.

CAEFS has witnessed this false binary narrative having a number of negative outcomes, and one of the biggest is the lack of understanding of the justice system from the charging, to trial, to sentencing and parole, which can create false expectations for registered victims. I have seen people who have attended a parole hearing and have mistakenly equated the denial of parole with justice and the granting of parole with injustice, with little to no understanding of why the person in prison is being approved for release.

Second, we do need to ensure the safety and wellness of people who have served their prison sentence and been reintegrated, but who have registered victims who actively monitor their lives. In many cases, people leaving prison move to a new geographic region through conditions of parole or by choice, even if this means living in places where they have little to no community support, have increased social marginality and the real and ironic risk of being revictimized and re-incarcerated.

Lastly, we must challenge the prevalence of a certain “tough on crime” narrative that a punitive system keeps anyone safe when the contrary has been proven to be true over and over again. The body of Canadian and global evidence suggests that punishment and incarceration are harmful for people, communities and society and that this model does not reduce or resolve crime.

Taking accountability for harm is a necessity, but we really only have one test for accountability in Canada, which is the length of time that a person is sentenced to prison. This is entirely inadequate and contributes to feelings of helplessness and hopelessness that are so often expressed by the people who have experienced harm.

In our adversarial system, there is no room for a person to express remorse and a desire to make amends. In our adversarial system, we focus only on the punitive and not the transformative potential of healing and, where appropriate, rehabilitation. In our adversarial system, there really are very few chances for healing.

It is for this reason that the most important task here is to be looking at ways that prevent people from becoming victims of harm. I know that I would like to have my cousin here living and with us. We have to invest in communities that create a world that addresses the root causes of violence and harm.

Thank you very much.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Ms. Coyle.

Now we'll go over to Mothers Against Drunk Driving.

5:30 p.m.

Jaymie-Lyne Hancock National President, Mothers Against Drunk Driving

Good afternoon. My name is Jaymie-Lyne Hancock, and I'm the national president of MADD Canada. With me today is Steve Sullivan, our director of victim services.

I will be making the opening remarks, and Steve will assist in answering questions.

On behalf of MADD Canada, our volunteers and members, and the victims and survivors of impaired driving, whom we support, thank you for this opportunity to address the committee on its important work regarding the government's obligation to victims of crime.

MADD Canada is a charitable organization, with a mission to stop impaired driving and to support victims of this violent crime. Every year, hundreds of Canadians are killed and thousands are injured in impairment-related crashes. For every one of those crashes, family, friends and communities are deeply and permanently affected.

My family knows that impact all too well. On August 21, 2014, my brother D.J. was leaving a tryout for a Junior A hockey team when he was hit head-on by an impaired driver. Our parents were at the tryout, and they were on the road just a few minutes behind D.J. They came upon the crash scene and found their son pinned inside his car. D.J. died an hour later. He was still trapped inside his car, with my parents paying witness to it all. Every day since, we have felt the grief and heartbreak of losing D.J. in such a senseless way. It did not have to happen.

MADD Canada is the only national anti-impaired driving organization that provides direct support to victims and survivors. We host online monthly support groups. We hold an annual conference for victims and survivors. We provide important opportunities for people to memorialize their loved ones, through monuments, online tributes and memorial road signs.

While these hearings are focused on the federal government, it needs to be recognized that most services and rights fall under the jurisdiction of the provinces and territories. It is important that this committee understands that victims and survivors of impaired driving are often not afforded the same level of services that victims of other violent crimes are. In fact, in some jurisdictions, impaired driving is considered a tragic circumstance, and victims and survivors of impaired-driving crashes may be excluded from the mandates of government-funded victim services and programs.

Many of those who come to MADD Canada were not offered services. They were told that there was not much victim services could do, or that they did not meet the parameters of programs. This is especially true for individuals who are injured in crashes. In 2021, MADD Canada held virtual round tables to discuss victims' rights, and the most consistent thing we heard about was on the lack of services, or the lack of helpful services.

We rarely talk about the cost to victims when they exercise their rights. Preparing a victim impact statement can be a painful and difficult process. Attending many court or parole hearings can revictimize people. This is not to suggest that we should limit rights, but we must recognize that the granting of rights is only half of our responsibility. Providing support is equally, if not more, important.

In terms of direct services, the federal government is limited to the corrections and parole systems and some direct funding programs. Despite the limited role, we believe the federal government can do more to strengthen federal legislation and support services. The federal victims fund is not accepting unsolicited applications for funding. We tried to apply for support for our 2022 National Conference for Victims of Impaired Driving, which we have done in the past, but we were told new applications were not being accepted. This was before the beginning of this fiscal year.

We are asking the committee to make a recommendation that the federal government increase the financial support available through this fund, so non-government services like ours can access assistance to provide desperately needed services. Our conference is unlike anything else in the country. We bring 250 victims and survivors from across the country together for a weekend of reflection, keynote speakers and networking. The impact and importance of this conference is not something I can adequately put into words with such limited time. I can only tell you that my parents and I were so grateful that we experienced this conference after D.J.'s death. It was an incredible help and comfort to us.

We believe that federal legislation, including the Criminal Code, the Corrections and Conditional Release Act and the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights can be strengthened to consider the needs and concerns of victims and survivors. For example, more consideration should be given to the mental health of victims and survivors when offenders are released back into the same community. Additionally, the Criminal Code should be amended to ensure that victims and survivors receive advance notice of a plea bargain and to require judges to acknowledge victim impact statements in their sentencing decisions.

We look forward to participating in the review of the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights. We note that the legislation passed in 2015 called for the review to take place within five years, and we are well past that time frame.

We look forward to answering any questions you may have for us.

Thank you.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Ms. Hancock.

Now we'll go to the first round of questions.

I will begin with Mr. Maguire for six minutes.

June 21st, 2022 / 5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses today for their excellent presentations, informing us of the situations they've faced personally and their experiences, as organizations, on how to.... Most importantly, you've given your help to find solutions, and better information gathering than we've had in the past.

I want to start off by saying, even to the last panellists—I didn't get a chance to do this—that I know some of the trauma you're going through. Some of you talked about 10 years, 15 and 20 years. It will be 45 years ago this fall that I lost my uncle in a hit-and-run accident. He was killed instantly. That trauma never leaves the family. I know this from dealing with my cousins, who were left without a father at that particular time, and without a new grandfather as well.

I want to start with Ms. Hancock or Mr. Sullivan. There's a public perception of the Canadian justice system on Parliament Hill that we've been dealing with. It's been the topic of discussion recently. I was wondering if you could share with us the perception of the justice system from the perspective of the individuals and families who Mothers Against Drunk Driving Canada supports.

You support an awful lot of victims. What do you think their perception is of some of the issues? Some of them were named by our previous panel. What are some of those perceptions of the present justice system?

5:35 p.m.

Steve Sullivan Director of Victim Services, Mothers Against Drunk Driving

I don't think it's all that different from what you heard from the previous witnesses. Many of the families we work with and support feel that impaired driving is not taken as seriously as it should be, given the trauma they suffer.

We work with people who have lost their children, their parents and, in Jaymie-Lyne's case, their brother. We also work with people who have suffered life-altering injuries. They'll never work again. They have changed how they parent. Their entire lives have changed because of the injuries they've suffered.

I think they also feel that, in terms of services.... Especially those people who are injured here in Ontario, for example...they are not eligible for services in the court system, in our victim/witness assistance program. We hear that across the country. They don't get the kind of assistance that other victims of violent crimes....

I'm not pretending that other victims get all that they should, either, but there is certainly a feeling that their trauma and the suffering they've experienced is not taken as seriously by the justice system as it should be.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Do you have anything to add to that, Ms. Coyle?

5:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies

Emilie Coyle

When it comes to the people who have experienced a death at the hands of a drunk driver, I don't have personal experience with that, with the people we work with. However, I have to say that my heart definitely goes out to all of the people who've spoken here today.

If you are not getting the support that you need, I hope that you do and that you're listened to.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Thank you.

I'll go back to Ms. Hancock. You mentioned help to strengthen the provinces. What do you think would be the best one or two ways that we in the federal government can help strengthen the provinces in terms of the needs of the families and the victims here?

Mr. Sullivan, you are, as I see by your title, in victim services.

5:35 p.m.

National President, Mothers Against Drunk Driving

Jaymie-Lyne Hancock

I'm sorry. I was just going to defer.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Thanks.

I'm sorry.