Justice Committee on Feb. 11th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I'm going to call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number three of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Pursuant to the motion adopted on Tuesday, February 8, the committee is meeting to review the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room, and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

There's one witness still trying to connect, but otherwise, I would like to welcome our witnesses.

I will be using cue cards, so if you are in the last 30 seconds of your remarks, and you see it, I will give you a warning without interrupting you. When you are out of time—I do not want to be rude—I will put up the out-of-time card.

I would like to call Cathy Peters as our first witness. If you could speak for five minutes, we'll then have the next witnesses speak for five minutes each as well, and then we'll have a round of questions.

Ms. Peters, please go ahead.

[Cathy Peters, Educator, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm a former inner-city high school teacher raising awareness about human sex trafficking and sexual exploitation for the purpose of prostitution, which is modern-day slavery.

Here are some stats. Thirteen years is the average age of recruitment and it's much younger for indigenous girls. In the Vancouver area, the target age has now dropped to 10 to 12 years old. COVID has made this worse. Traffickers are organized and sophisticated. Ninety per cent of the luring, grooming, buying and selling is online on social media platforms.

Fifty-four per cent of the sex trade is indigenous, and it's 70% to 90% in urban centres. They are severely overrepresented in the sex industry. I told the B.C. indigenous chiefs in front of Minister of Justice David Lametti that this is the most egregious form of systemic racism in Canada. Eighty-two per cent who are involved in prostitution have experienced childhood sexual abuse or incest. Seventy-two per cent live with complex PTSD. Ninety-five per cent of those involved in prostitution want to leave: It is not a choice or a job. The vast majority of prostituted persons are pimped or trafficked, and organized crime and international crime syndicates are typically involved. Crime follows the money, and traffickers make hundreds of thousands of dollars per victim per year.

My goal is to traffick-proof every community in British Columbia and to stop the full decriminalization of prostitution in Canada by supporting the federal law, the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act. I've been involved with sexual exploitation prevention for over 40 years and began raising awareness full time for the last eight years since PCEPA became federal law. In 2014, I began presenting to politicians at all three levels of government, the police and the public. I explained PCEPA so that the police would enforce it and the public would understand it and be able to report it

The law has four parts. Number one, it targets the demand by targeting the buyer of sex. The trafficker, facilitator or buyer of sex is criminalized. Number two, it recognizes that the seller of sex is a victim, usually female, and is immune from prosecution. Number three, exit strategies are in place to assist the victim out of the sex trade. Number four, there is robust prevention education so youth, children and the vulnerable are not pulled into the sex industry.

This law focuses on the source of the harm: the buyers of sex and the profiteers. The clear statement from Parliament was that girls and women in Canada are not for sale: They are full human beings with dignity and human rights.

In eight years, I have made over 500 presentations to over 20,000 people, not including the presentations that can be viewed online, but the turning point was last March when the Kamloops mass grave was reported. Since then, I have made over 200 presentations to city councils, regional districts, school boards, police forces, schools, frontline service providers and indigenous groups, including the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls gatherings in British Columbia.

I have three points.

Number one, PCEPA is not known or enforced in B.C. Therefore, B.C. is the best province in Canada to buy sex. Organized crime and international crime syndicates are typically involved.

Number two, PCEPA has never had a national rollout campaign. Some Canadians have not heard of the law, and the police are not getting the funding or training to enforce the law.

Number three, the sex industry wants to repeal PCEPA to normalize, commercialize and institutionalize the sex industry in Canada. If this happens, Canada will become a global sex tourism destination and America's brothel. Indigenous women and girls will be the first casualties. No Canadian would ever support this.

Consistent enforcement and the strengthening of PCEPA, combined with a robust educational campaign, are needed. Without the enforcement of the law, the sex industry will continue to grow rapidly. The review of PCEPA puts Canada at a tipping point. Repealing or weakening the law will have a catastrophic impact on this beautiful country of Canada.

In conclusion, I do not want anyone on this committee to be under any illusion that the sex industry is safe. It can never be made safe. It is a deadly industry. I have presented with the forensics RCMP officer who picked up and identified the body pieces on the Robert Pickton farm.

Trisha Baptie is presenting in the next hour. She is a survivor and was a journalist for two years at the Pickton trial.

Please read and understand the Robert Pickton case thoroughly. That describes the reality of the sex industry and how it works.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Peters.

Is Dr. Chevrier online yet? No.

We'll go to Jennifer Dunn of the London Abused Women's Centre for five minutes.

[Jennifer Dunn, Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My name is Jennifer Dunn, and I am the executive director of the London Abused Women's Centre.

In Tuesday's session for this study, it was said that what is needed is less law, fewer statistics and more information from the ground from the most directly impacted, so thank you for having me here today.

The London Abused Women's Centre is a feminist organization located in London, Ontario, that supports and advocates for personal, social and systemic change directed at ending male violence against women and girls. We are non-residential and provide women and girls over the age of 12 who have been abused, assaulted, exploited and trafficked with immediate access to long-term, trauma-informed and woman-centred counselling, advocacy and support.

Over the next few minutes as I talk to you about our work, I will be referring to our centre as LAWC. I will also be using the term “sex industry” from time to time. The sex industry includes women who have been prostituted, sexually exploited and trafficked. LAWC does not use the term “sex work”.

During LAWC's last fiscal year, over 4,600 women and girls who were abused, assaulted, exploited or trafficked were provided with individual counselling and group support. During this same time, LAWC also answered over 5,000 calls for support.

LAWC has been providing services to women and girls involved in the sex industry for nearly 25 years. Since 2015, LAWC has supported over 2,800 women and girls involved in the sex industry and over 1,800 women and girls who were at risk of becoming involved in the sex industry. This number includes at least 68 girls who reported that they were under 18 years of age.

Young women and girls between the ages of 12 and 21 are at the highest risk of being sexually exploited, groomed and lured into the sex industry, often by traffickers who manipulate them into believing they are in a relationship. LAWC recognizes prostitution as male violence against women and incompatible with women's human rights; it is the demand for prostitution that fuels sex trafficking.

The Nordic or equality model—in Canada's case, the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act—decriminalizes women in the sex industry while criminalizing sex purchasers and traffickers. This same model provides support services and safety planning to those wishing to exit and to those who are not able to exit. It also educates communities about the impacts of prostitution and sexual exploitation on the lives of future generations.

Canada needs this legislation to protect the most vulnerable before the trafficking laws need to come into play, and the best approach to reduce sex trafficking is to continue to decriminalize the women and girls being exploited while criminalizing the sex purchasers and traffickers.

Some women and girls come to LAWC because they are being abused by their intimate partner. After a few sessions, it is revealed that the woman's intimate partner is also her trafficker. Many sexually exploited women and girls attending LAWC identify that they have endured horrific torture and abuse from sex purchasers and traffickers. They report suffering from significant mental health issues and physical trauma from these experiences. They come to LAWC looking for support.

Some women and girls became involved in the sex industry independently, but report that they quickly ended up under the control of someone else. Women have reported that they were lured into the sex industry. Some entered for survival.

Women report being suicidal, and some die by suicide. Some women have significant substance use issues, because they are introduced to an addictive drug as a way for them to cope or a way for them to be controlled. Most women report that they are forced to have unwanted sex with multiple random men, with some women saying that they must meet certain quotas day after day.

You may never hear from those who are most vulnerable. They may not even know that the issues directly impacting their lives are being talked about at this very moment in the House of Commons.

Since 2014, after the change in the legislation, there have been fewer homicides of women in the sex industry, fewer women accused in sex trade-related incidents and more men accused of obtaining sexual services from a minor.

LAWC and other agencies like ours across Canada see women every single day who have been exploited and lured with the promise of, or hope for, a better life. The truth is that the sex industry is putting women and girls at risk every single day. Normalizing the sex industry by decriminalizing the purchasers and traffickers would set women's rights back decades.

The government has a responsibility to make decisions based on the best interests of all. This is not an individual issue.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

I'll go to our next witness, Dr. Claudyne Chevrier.

If you can just test the mike for about 10 seconds and say anything, such as how the weather is.

[Dr. Claudyne Chevrier, Ph.D., Community Health Sciences, As an Individual]

Good afternoon. I just want to make sure the mike works.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

We got a thumbs up and so your sound is good.

You have five minutes and then we'll have questions right after that.

[Dr. Claudyne Chevrier]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm happy that I was finally able to join.

I'm here to share some insight from the research I conducted on sex work in Winnipeg, Manitoba, over the last decade. I completed a Ph.D. in community health sciences at the Max Rady College of Medicine at the University of Manitoba in 2020. My dissertation topic was on access to health and social services for cisgender and transgender women and non-binary people selling or trading sex in the city.

The methodology I used was ethnography in order to talk about access to health and social services. I needed to characterize what's happening politically and socially around sex work in Winnipeg and, of course, that's framed in the legal context, which for the entirety of my data collection was the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act.

My research indicated that sex workers and people who sell and trade sex have poor access to health and social services, experience a lack of safety, serious stigmatization and barriers in accessing what they need. This relates to a general climate of indifference and stigma, which is framed by the current legal context. My research points to, among other things, the fact that policies, programs and laws should focus on approaches that prioritize the safety, health and well-being of sex workers on their own terms. One of the ways towards achieving that is the decriminalization of all aspects of the sex trade.

Before I tell you a little more about my research, I want to give you a clearer picture of who it is I talked to. I did formal, semi-structured interviews with 39 sex workers and people selling sex, 12 interviews with stakeholders and over four years of participant observation with sex workers' rights activists in the city. That's in addition to document analysis and literature review of local, national and international literature.

Of the sex workers and people who sell sex whom I spoke to, the average age was 36, and the range was from 20 to 55 years old. Among this group, 52% indicated that they were indigenous, aboriginal or Métis, and 17% said they were white. I asked everyone where they mostly meet clients, and the most common answers were on the street, in bars and online in order to meet in person. I am telling you all of this to give you an idea that I spoke to a very diverse group of people.

I want to give you one example from my research that is about the climate of a lack of safety for sex workers in Winnipeg under PCEPA. It also happens to be an example of a very important documented dynamic in Winnipeg, which is the aggressive silencing and erasure of sex workers' voices if they do not see their experience as exploitative. This is shown in my dissertation, and it's noted in other research as well. I won't talk about it too much here, but I wanted to point it out.

The example is that, in 2017, at a town hall meeting, Chief Danny Smyth of the Winnipeg Police Service, answered a question from a local sex workers' rights advocacy group, the Sex Workers of Winnipeg Action Coalition, about the safety specifically of sex workers under PCEPA and he stated that he believes that "My general view around the sex trade is that most people involved are being exploited in one way or another." He then added that he refers to them as “exploited persons, whether they be men, women or children”.

Chief Smyth plainly stated that he does not think that sex workers exist in Winnipeg. I invite you to think about what that means when the chief of police does not think that you exist. Sex workers who were present who heard that said that it meant to them that they are not to expect recognition or protection from police services. This is especially true for populations that are already over-policed, like indigenous people and other racialized groups.

My research documents the unacceptable experiences of discrimination and stigmatization that most of my participants encounter in health and social services. Not everyone described experiences of discrimination, but everyone was concerned about it and used strategies to avoid it and to keep themselves safe from it. Stigma and the fear of it touched everyone.

Feelings that ranged from mistrust to outright anger and fear of the police were expressed by 12 of the people I talked to unprompted. One person I talked to, I called her “C” in my dissertation, was as 49-year-old indigenous cisgender women who worked outdoors. After she told me that she would never report a sexual assault to the police, I asked her if she would be willing to share why with me, and she said: “Because I don’t like the police. It’s like because you’re in that area they look at you like a “nobody”.... I don’t even trust them. They’ve done things to the workers that not any normal person would. They just tend to degrade the workers on the street I know that.”

People I spoke to asked for services to be more compassionate, to use appropriate language, to educate themselves on the varied realities that exist in sex work, to hire more sex workers and, above all, to respect their humanity.

This was the most devastating result—

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

You're going to have to conclude there, Dr. Chevrier.

[Dr. Claudyne Chevrier]

Yes, I'm so sorry. Thank you.

This was the most devastating result from my research. About 30 out of 49 people told me that they wanted to be treated like human beings. This is how terribly we are failing sex workers in our communities, in our programs, in our policies and in our laws.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you. You'll have some more time during questions to make some of your points.

For the first round of questions, I'll go to Mr. Brock, for six minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank all three presenter—Ms. Peters, Ms. Dunn, and Dr. Chevrier—for all the important work you are doing in this particular area. Your comments and responses to a number of questions this afternoon will be very helpful for this committee in making recommendations.

I'd like to start off by questioning Ms. Peters. Ms. Peters, I am a former Crown attorney, and in that role I have specialized in prosecuting special victims of crime, particularly human trafficking victims and child victims. I also spent a great deal of time dealing with indigenous offenders and indigenous victims. I'm very much concerned about the fact that, although indigenous women and children make up such a small percentage of the population in Brantford, they are heavily and disproportionately represented as victims of human trafficking.

My riding in Brantford—Brant includes the largest Indian reservation in Canada, known as the Six Nations of the Grand River. I don't know if you're familiar with that particular reservation, but I'd like to ask you, specifically, what are your thoughts on what is happening in that particular jurisdiction and why, generally, do such a high percentage of indigenous women and children find themselves victimized?

[Cathy Peters]

My focus is really British Columbia and, of course, we have a huge number of indigenous people in B.C. I've had the opportunity and honour to present to missing and murdered indigenous women and girls gatherings. The women and girls give me the information. I've also done many extra presentations to indigenous youth workers, Vancouver Native Education College, and House of the Moon. There are many opportunities. They are the ones who tell me what is going on.

What the doctor was just saying is true. Typically, the problem is mistrust of police. They certainly will not report. That is a big problem. These indigenous communities also live with complex PTSD. I didn't know much about complex PTSD. That's another level. That is generational trauma. That is what indigenous women and girls live with; it's generation to generation.

Their communities are not necessarily the healthiest or safest places either. They have certainly told me that. There is childhood sexual abuse and there is incest that often takes place. They don't feel safe or free to talk about it or report it. It's this ongoing cycle that tends to go on from generation to generation.

The wonderful news is that indigenous women and girls want a voice. They're learning that they have a voice. I encourage them to express their voice. Yes, they're severely overrepresented. It's not just in your area; it's right across the country, and certainly in B.C.

The sex industry is now targeting indigenous women and girls very specifically. I've had young indigenous girls tell me that it happens online, and these traffickers will simply offer free drugs and alcohol. That's all it takes; it doesn't take much.

This is what we have to deal with and I think education is really key. That is what we are missing.

I want to add that PCEPA deals with the root cause, the demand. We've got to deal with the buyers. We've got to deal with the men and boys who are exploiting and buying. We've got to reach men and boys. I say to men and boys, “There's a sacred part of the woman you have no right to.” I just said that to all the indigenous chiefs in B.C. That's where it's at. We have to deal with the root causes, and that is what this law does.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

With the time I have remaining, I'd like to focus on the criminal penalties under Bill C-36.

As you know, Bill C-36 criminalized certain types of behaviours, which resulted in mandatory minimums, dealing with adults, of anywhere from four to five years, depending on the circumstances.

Do you feel that the changes in the legislation under the Criminal Code have had a required deterrent impact as a result of that legislation change?

[Cathy Peters]

That's an excellent question.

It has the potential to, if the law was actually enforced. The problem in B.C. is that it's not enforced. They are a provincial government. They don't go after the sex workers or the prostituted people who are in the sex industry. They get that piece, but they're not going after the root cause.

I'd like to see minimum sentences, at least, increased. The one case I was involved in that I had to speak to was Regina v. Alcorn. Did you all watch that? It was in Manitoba, where the young, underage indigenous girl was sexually assaulted, exploited, filmed and committed suicide. The judges in that case quadrupled the sentence of the predator, which was absolutely brilliant. Personally, I think it can be a deterrent if it's used.

Thank you.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

A number of the witnesses we've heard from so far and a number of witnesses we're about to hear are going to be advocating for decriminalization of all prostitution laws as a means to safeguard our women and children. If that is not going to be the reality in the foreseeable future, can you offer any suggestions as to proposed amendments to the law to make a situation safer for women and children?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Ms. Peters, please provide just a quick answer. You have 10 seconds.

[Cathy Peters]

I'm not a lawyer, but my brief has suggestions and I've submitted that.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

Now we'll go over to Mr. Naqvi for six minutes.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair. I thank the two panellists for their interventions.

Dr. Chevrier, I want to make sure that if you have a couple of last important points to make, I'm able to give you maybe a minute or two to quickly finish your point.

[Dr. Claudyne Chevrier]

Thank you. That's very kind. I was in a bit of a rush when I got here.

One thing I want to say is that my research shows there's a climate of stigmatization in Winnipeg. There's also a history of hostility in this regard to sex workers' perspectives in a way that falsely opposes sex their rights to the necessary protection of the victims of sexual exploitation and human trafficking.

Erasure and silencing of sex workers does not help sex workers. It does not keep them safe. It does not keep the victims of sexual exploitation safe. Criminalization of sex work does not protect sex workers or victims of exploitation. It is possible to support sex workers and to fight against trafficking and exploitation, and it's possible to do all of this at the same time.

I think the focus needs to be on safety. It needs to be based on evidence. There is a mountain of evidence in public health that points towards decriminalization of sex work, both nationally and internationally. There is also a mountain of evidence that comes from sex workers locally that I would urge everyone to look at.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Based on your research, has the law been effective?

[Dr. Claudyne Chevrier]

If you're asking me whether the law has made things safer for sex workers, it has not. There is research that has been done on this in public health.

For example, there's research from 2019, with 299 participants, that found 26.4% of respondents indicated negative changes to their working conditions since the enactment of PCEPA. That means it not only didn't stay the same, it got worse.

There's also research from Vancouver, actually, in spite of local policy guidelines particularly not targeting people, that shows that police presence leads to an increase in rushed client negotiations for sex workers. In this case, the research was with sex workers who use drugs. It was also associated with client-perpetrated violence and other markers of vulnerability. Therefore, the presence of the police is still increasing violence for sex workers.

There is another study, from 2021, with 200 sex workers in five cities in Canada, where 31% reported not being able to call 911 if they or another sex worker were in a safety emergency, due to fear of police detection of themselves or their colleagues or their management.

I could go on, but I don't want to drown everyone in statistics. I just want to say that, clearly, no, it is not working. It is not working for sex workers. It is not making their life safer, and it is not working for victims of sexual exploitation. It is not keeping them safer.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Based on your research and the other studies you were just citing, where are the gaps? Our purpose here is to review the legislation and develop some recommendations. This is your opportunity to highlight the gaps for us. What would you suggest that we, as parliamentarians, change in this legislation?