Evidence of meeting #34 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was defence.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kerri Froc  Associate Professor, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual
Elizabeth Sheehy  Professor Emerita of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Isabel Grant  Professor, As an Individual
Suzanne Zaccour  Head of Feminist Law Reform, National Association of Women and the Law

5:05 p.m.

Prof. Elizabeth Sheehy

The hope would be that any of those amendments would change the worrisome spectre of prosecutions being dropped. This is not an exact science, obviously, drafting legislation and expecting to produce particular results. I think it's fair to assume that a change in the legal standard, as explained in the legislation, would have an impact on prosecutorial decisions.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

I know the expertise you have is in constitutional law, but I have a question about whether there could be a way prosecutorial guidelines could be used, both in terms of extreme intoxication cases and more broadly in sexual assault cases, to ensure that more charges are laid.

5:05 p.m.

Prof. Elizabeth Sheehy

Some of this is a policing issue. As you know, we have a very widespread, profound and persistent problem of police unfounding of sexual assault in Canada. The rates in some jurisdictions remain very high. Prosecutorial guidelines won't change that for those provinces that use police as their charging decision-makers.

Yes, prosecutorial guidelines can be helpful. I imagine most provinces actually have prosecutorial guidelines on sexual assault, and I'm sure that some provinces will be issuing ones that include extreme intoxication as part of their effort to guide Crown prosecutors in making their decisions in these cases.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Great. Thank you.

I'm sure there's nothing meaningful left of time, so thanks very much.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

Thank you to the witnesses—Professor Sheehy, Professor Froc and Professor Grant, who had to leave a short time ago.

This concludes our first round. We'll take a minute to suspend and get our next witness on board. Then, for the sake of members, we'll be going to about 5:40. We'll have a slightly shorter round, but we only have one witness.

Thank you. I'll suspend briefly.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

We will now resume with our second panel.

Our second panel consists of Ms. Suzanne Zaccour of the National Association of Women and the Law.

Ms. Zaccour, you can speak for five minutes, and then we'll begin our round of questions.

5:10 p.m.

Suzanne Zaccour Head of Feminist Law Reform, National Association of Women and the Law

Thank you.

Hi everyone. My name is Suzanne Zaccour, and I am the head of feminist law reform at NAWL, the National Association of Women and the Law, L'Association nationale Femmes et Droit.

NAWL is a national not-for-profit organization that advocates for women's rights in Canada. We've been doing this work since 1974, and have consulted many times with many governments on the development of legislation that protects women's rights, including major reforms of sexual assault law in the 1980s and the 1990s.

The National Association of Women and the Law has three major concerns regarding this bill.

First, we need to consider all impacts of the law, not just its impact on acquittals. Even if an accused does not have a valid defence, he can still claim extreme intoxication to influence the victim, the police, and prosecutors in their decision to report, charge, and plea bargain. I probably don't have to remind you that most sexual assault and domestic violence cases never make it to trial, so it's really important to consider the law's impact before the court process. We are particularly concerned about cases not being brought forward because the accused was drunk. To make things really clear to victims, to police and to prosecutors, we have recommended that the law explicitly state that alcohol is presumed not to cause extreme intoxication. Also, adequate training and public information will be necessary.

Second, we are concerned about the Crown's ability to prove marked departure, given the bill's mention of the foreseeability of both the risk of extreme intoxication and the risk of harm. Will the use of any street drug guarantee the success of the defence because there is no way to know what's really in there? Or will an accused who has taken these drugs before say it wasn't foreseeable because he has done this before and he didn't lose control? Or will an accused who has not taken these drugs before say the same thing: “I've never done these drugs before, so how was it foreseeable that my body would react in this way?” Will a man who regularly assaults his wife while drunk say that losing control on that particular occasion wasn't foreseeable because he's a habitual drinker and he has never reached extreme intoxication before? The courts, but also police and prosecutors, must receive proper guidance on these issues.

Our third point is that we need a commitment to reviewing the law after these hearings and documenting the use of the defence, because a lot of the conversation around this bill has been about how this defence is allegedly very rare. That's what we keep hearing, but how could we know that if most accused have been completely barred from raising the defence for the past 27 years? You've heard research presented by Professor Sheehy in the previous panel that suggests that the extreme intoxication defence could be used more regularly than anticipated. And, as was made clear, we don't know what the impact will be of this defence outside of the trial, for example in charging decisions.

The bill has now passed. How are we going to find out if the defence is indeed rare and working as intended or if it becomes the new cover-up for drunk violence against women? Are repeat abusers using the defence? Does it succeed when alcohol alone is involved? Are the courts strict or permissive? We need answers to those questions.

We ask that your committee recommend a three-year review of the law. I'm speaking with you today at a time when it's too late to amend the provisions, but there is still time to get this issue right.

I thank you for listening and thank you for giving this issue the consideration it deserves.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you.

I believe I have Mr. Brock for six minutes.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Zaccour, for your presentation today. I have a few questions for you. I'm going to give you an opportunity right from the outset. Is there anything you want to expand upon with those three key suggestions that you finished off with in terms of how this bill can be improved?

5:15 p.m.

Head of Feminist Law Reform, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

Absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity.

I want to maybe add something more on the use of alcohol alone in causing extreme intoxication. There has been mention of the fact that it is doubtful at a scientific level that alcohol alone can cause extreme intoxication. However, for the law to cause damage, you only need one expert to say, yes, it happens. You don't even need that. You only need one police officer or one prosecutor or one victim to think that an expert could say that.

Our organization really wants to emphasize that it's not just how the law is designed to work, but how it will actually work in practice that should really receive proper consideration.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

This probably explains why there's an emphasis, in your mind, that a three-year review would be warranted in the circumstances. We're wading into new territory right now. Given the lack of meaningful consultation with numerous groups across this country, we can all agree this particular piece of legislation was hastily put together. There was no urgency. There was a requirement for the government to react, but there wasn't that pressing urgency by which we have the bill that is now before us.

I appreciate your commentary, and I really appreciate your first point about the impacts of the law. I'm a former prosecutor. I have 30 years of prosecutorial experience. I prosecuted a number of offences involving women as the victims—sexual assault, aggravated assault—where these types of defences came up. I only had one case where I actually lost to a section 33.1 defence, but I'm aware of the overall impact that it has for victims.

Given the vagueness with which this legislation has now been drafted, I foresee the availability of this defence to open up much more litigation than we have currently seen. Inherently with that, that means more victims are going to be traumatized by the length of time by which these defences are going to be drawn out in courts.

Do you share that concern in terms of the delay issue and the overall impacts on victims?

5:20 p.m.

Head of Feminist Law Reform, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

Absolutely.

I want to emphasize the fact that the law I learned in law school is really different from what I hear from victims. I've heard from victims. They said they're not pressing charges because there's a limitation. It's prescribed, which, of course, doesn't make sense for sexual assault. I've had victims say that they're not going to press charges because there was no penetration, which also doesn't make sense with the state of the law.

It's really important to consider that the law is not always applied in this very sophisticated way. The way the Supreme Court applies the law is not the same way that police officers or prosecutors across the country will necessarily apply the law.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Another concern I have is the issue regarding alcohol as being the sole intoxicating substance. I seem to recall, long before the Supreme Court of Canada issued the Brown decision, the jurisprudence made it abundantly clear to prosecutors, particularly in Ontario, that alcohol alone would never succeed in a defence under section 33.1. Now, with this new legislation, and some of the reports I'm reading from some of the professors who testified before you, it would appear that alcohol is indeed open to that type of consideration.

Would you agree with that?

5:20 p.m.

Head of Feminist Law Reform, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

Yes. The discourse we have heard from the Supreme Court and from commentators is that alcohol is unlikely to lead to extreme intoxication. That means that as soon as someone proves there was extreme intoxication, there's no way to prove the foreseeability. Everyone is saying it's not foreseeable that alcohol would lead to extreme intoxication.

The other issue is that.... NAWL has consistently advocated for judicial training. There's been some progress on this, but it continues to be of concern. Again, just because an academic says something in an article or the Supreme Court even says something, it doesn't mean that it will reach all judges and that it will be applied consistently.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

That's the problem, because judges will see things much differently. There often is not that consistency that one would expect, particularly in this area of the law, and I think that's why the professors really stressed ultimately tightening up the legislation to make it abundantly clear what authority the judges have in these circumstances.

5:20 p.m.

Head of Feminist Law Reform, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

The more the law is clear, obviously, the better it is for everyone. We shouldn't trust that people will just know all the jurisprudence very well. The law should be very clear and easy to interpret, in my opinion.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Right. You also, I believe—

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Oh, is my time up?

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Yes.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Next, for six minutes, we have Mr. Naqvi, please.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing, and I also want to thank the witnesses who were before us earlier.

I'm going to ask a few questions because I am a bit confused. I was talking to Dr. Froc earlier as well, just to alleviate my confusion and better understand.

Let's just start with some really basic thoughts of yours on the defence and the law that we're speaking of. Did you agree with the defence under section 33.1 that existed before it was struck down by the Supreme Court of Canada?

5:25 p.m.

Head of Feminist Law Reform, National Association of Women and the Law

Suzanne Zaccour

Do you mean, did I think it was a good policy choice, or did I think it was constitutional?

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

That's a good question. Tell me about both.