Justice Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I don't know why everybody is laughing.

My question is a serious one. This bill is purporting to make one important change: to replace the term “child pornography” with “child sexual abuse material”. That's an important change. I'm sure that a lot of thought has gone into coming up with those four words, “child sexual abuse material”.

Can you walk us through how you came to those four particular words? Did you look at jurisprudence? Have you looked at what the experts have said, that those are the more appropriate words that should be in the Criminal Code?

Supplementary to that, in your view, are you comfortable that it covers the breadth and scope of horrific material that's available that targets children and, in many instances, uses children? I just want to make sure that we're not missing anything.

Thank you.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I'll start and then forward it on to Mr. Caputo to finish off.

We looked at the term “child pornography”, and it's clear to us—and from what we've heard—that it does not describe what is actually taking place because children cannot consent to being involved in the making of this material. “Child sexual abuse material”, we feel, is an appropriate term. It better describes what is actually taking place, the actual abuse of children.

With that, Mr. Caputo may have a little more technical...with his legal expertise behind him.

Thank you.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

That's correct. In fact, Mr. Naqvi, I was at a conference probably three or four years ago put on by BC ICE, the RCMP division that deals with this issue—I commend the police officers who deal with this. It's something that actually came up. One of the presenters was talking about it, and someone else said, “You know what? We're not going to talk about it. I'm not going to call it 'child pornography' today. I'm going to call it 'child sexual abuse material'.”

I was in Germany just last week, and this came up. They call it “child sexual abuse material”. In fact, they told me how inspired they were that we, as Canadians, will be changing this. This was with a group.... As I understood it, they were a governmental organization that dealt with victims of sexual assault. They were going to now petition their lawmakers to make a similar change.

I don't think anything can adequately address the horrific nature of abuse. Children who are subjected to this will often be subjected to a life imprisonment based on what we know to be PTSD, trauma, and things like that. I don't know that there is any term that can adequately encapsulate what victims go through. Often they go through this at such a young age that they can't remember, but they know in their residual memory that there has been trauma.

I wish we could have a word or a term that was all-encompassing. To me, “child sexual abuse material” is appropriate because children are being abused.

In the definition under section 163.1 of the Criminal Code, it's not only the material itself. It's anything that advocates for the abuse of children. That's why we came to that conclusion. I understand that there may be some amendments, and we're certainly open to that.

Thank you.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Naqvi.

I will next go to Mr. Villemure for five minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Arnold, thank you for raising such an important subject.

Mr. Caputo, I'd also like to thank you for speaking with obvious passion. These are unspeakable acts. Is this type of crime on the rise now?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That's a wonderful question.

The number of prosecutions is actually going up. I believe in about 2012, Monsieur Villemure, the Harper government instituted a law that required what we call a positive obligation to report. If a service provider or a group like Facebook or Yahoo knew that this was occurring, they had to report it to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which would then send it to the RCMP.

This crime, I think, was happening much more than we ever want to acknowledge. When that law changed, we saw a spike. I don't have the statistics, but I've seen the graph. It's just like a mountain. It's just straight uphill because of how many more offences were being found.

It used to be that this type of offence was only discovered when somebody brought in their computer to a repair shop and someone stumbled upon it or somebody said they knew about somebody who was doing it. Now the vast majority of cases are coming through Internet luring. You do see where somebody says their child has been lured, but a lot of the cases are coming from.... One of the most significant cases I dealt with was luring from the Philippines. In that case, I can't remember if it was Facebook or Yahoo, but it told the authorities there was suspected child abuse. A child was being victimized for child sexual abuse material in exchange for money. That's how it came out.

I don't know.... I can't tell you whether this is occurring with more regularity. Internet luring is certainly occurring with more regularity and that's where an electronic device is used to commit a sexual offence. Now kids are having cell phones earlier and earlier.

What I can say is that we're seeing more and more of these cases come before the courts because people are starting to be more aware.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

We're really starting to hear a lot about it.

You said that Facebook or Yahoo can report these crimes. What criteria do they use to report them?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm not sure what they deal with, Monsieur Villemure. I'm not sure how their algorithms work, but my recollection is that there are varying degrees, like a child in imminent danger or suspected abuse and things like that.

I'm not overly technical in that sense, but I'm sure that they have certain key words that they will run through their algorithms and when they come up, it will generate a report. That report with the suspected child sexual abuse material will then be sent. Somebody from the RCMP reviews it.

For those who are unaware, the people in the RCMP actually see this. They will actually say whether it meets the definition in the Criminal Code at section 163.1, and then an investigation will be generated from there.

I thank those people who put their mental health on the line, as well.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

Bill C‑291 talks a lot about the production and distribution of child sexual abuse materials. Is it section 163.1 that defines child sexual abuse material, or do you have an amendment to that definition somewhere?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Under section 163.1, the definition isn't changing.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay. It's the same definition.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Yes. We're calling it something different.

Mr. Arnold, would you agree?

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Yes, that's correct. The definition isn't changing. It's the term. The term “child pornography” will be changed to “child sexual abuse material”.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay. The text is the same.

Mr. Caputo, earlier I think you mentioned that your wife works in a field where she sees these incidents on a regular basis. Could you tell us about that?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Yes. First off, I have the most amazing wife in the world—the most amazing spouse. She's my partner. She's incredibly supportive.

She is a lawyer at a legal clinic that deals particularly with women who have been traumatized and who really have nobody else to turn to for legal advice and legal support. She gives legal advice and legal support often to marginalized women, people who have nowhere else to turn and have often been victims of trauma and of violence, and particularly to groups that are overrepresented in the justice system. I'm very proud of the work that she does in that.

Thank you for the question.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

As you said earlier, this is an ongoing crime.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I'm sorry, Mr. Villemure, we're out of time, unfortunately.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Merci. Now we'll go to Mr. Garrison for five minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I, too, want to thank the two members for bringing attention to child sexual abuse in all its forms through a bill like this, and for doing what we'd say in the vernacular is calling a spade a spade—saying what it really is. I think that's important.

I do not actually share the enthusiasm for denunciation through long sentences that I know Conservatives do, but I thank you for your support for what I think is most important here. We know what works on child sex abuse in all its forms, and that's enforcement. Quite often people do not have the resources in the organizations to pursue these investigations to their conclusions. I will echo what Mr. Caputo said, which I said in my remarks before—we don't often pay enough attention to the mental health impacts on those who fight against child abuse in all its forms. I want to join you in thanking those people again today.

I don't really have questions for you. I want to thank you for saying that you'll be there when it comes time to vote on resources for enforcement and supports for survivors. We know that's what works when it comes to combatting the evils that are brought about by child sexual abuse in all its forms.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

That concludes the round of questioning. I will now—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Perhaps I can just respond quickly, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Oh, sure.

Mr. Arnold.