Library of Parliament Committee on May 24th, 2018

[The Joint Chair, Liberal, Gagan Sikand]

Madam Quach.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to put a question on access to information.

Could you tell us about the difficulties you encountered in obtaining government documents you would have liked to consult to do your costing analyses?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

Regarding access to information, the situation has improved over the last years. However, the documents the government considers to be cabinet documents are still the object of debate. Consequently, they were not accessible. For instance, all of the gender-based analyses that are carried out for various bills are not accessible because they were submitted to cabinet. That situation remains problematic. Access to information has improved to some extent, even if certain departments are a bit reluctant.

I should also mention that the act now contains a parliamentary recourse process. In other words, if the parliamentary budget officer feels that information should be provided to him that is not forthcoming, he can complain to the Speaker of the House of Commons and to the Speaker of the Senate. That parliamentary recourse existed five years ago when I arrived. The committee had authorized it and it is now included in the act. I have not had to use it up till now.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Do you know how many documents are deemed to be cabinet documents?

As you were saying, you don't have access to gender-based analyses. This means that you cannot cost those measures. Is that correct?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

In fact, that doesn't help us. Regarding particular budget measures, it would be useful for us to have access to those documents. In the case of gender-based analyses, we try to work most often by using the information we can obtain. It would be preferable that we have access to that information. I don't need to know what was debated in cabinet; I only need the plain and simple analysis. This would facilitate our work. When we study programs targeting children for instance, access to that analysis would allow us to accelerate our work.

Regarding your question, the real test will come during the election campaign. Parliament will suspend its activities for a certain time. I have begun discussions to find out whether the parliamentary recourse would work. A very specific provision in the act allows the PBO to ask the minister to help in the calculation of the financial cost of electoral platforms. The minister can accept or refuse. We will certainly need the help of the departments. We would like the information to be provided to us quickly and easily. We are in fact having discussions about this.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

According to what I understand, you cannot force a minister or department to provide documentation that would help you to calculate costs.

You were saying that there are 38 other PBOs among OECD member countries.

Do some of them have other powers, and a different way of proceeding? Do you think they could provide inspiration to us here in Canada?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

Some cultures are different. We know that in Australia, for instance, the government is very open. All of the people who work in the executive branch in Parliament have very good relationships. It is a different kind of culture. Out of the 38 PBOs, several have trouble accessing information at various levels. As I said earlier, the situation was difficult at first in Canada. Certain aspects still are, but there has been considerable improvement.

Co-operation is excellent regarding infrastructure, for instance. There was a question about that. We frequently collaborate with people from the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance to help them monitor the development of infrastructure and related budgets. Our co-operation with representatives of Infrastructure Canada has improved a great deal over the last months, because they understood how important it is that they provide this information.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Are there departments that are more reluctant to share their figures?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

The departments are like human nature, that is to say that there are always people who are more reluctant than others.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Could we know which ones? Personally, I am interested in everything having to do with youth, particularly the fight against child poverty.

[The Joint Chair, Liberal, Gagan Sikand]

I'm sorry, we're running out of time, so we're going to move on.

Senator Mercer, if you don't mind, you'll have a few minutes less, because you've already spoken.

[Terry M. Mercer]

I have two questions. I'll do them both at the same time. That way it will be up to the witness to determine the length.

The review of campaign platforms adds a very important new wrinkle to what you do. How will you analyze your success after the campaign of 2019? Is there a method for you to come back to say what worked and what didn't work, so that if legislation needs to be fixed to support the office or to change, the information is there?

My final question is a simple question. There are 38 parliamentary budget officers in the OECD countries. How many of them do costing of political campaign platforms?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

I'll go to your second question first. Only one has a legislative mandate: the Australian PBO. In the Netherlands the office does the calculation of the electoral platforms, but it doesn't have the legislative mandate. In the Netherlands it was created in 1947, so it has a long experience. There are about 12 parties, so it's a different story over there.

One, then, has a legislative mandate, which is the Australian one.

I will ask Jason, who is the senior director who will be in charge of the costing of the electoral platforms, to explain how he will do it. Since I will not be there, I'd prefer to ask him to answer your question.

[Jason Jacques, Chief Financial Officer and Senior Director, Costing and Budgetary Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer]

It's a very good question. The starting point for us, quite obviously, is being able to cost all the requests that come in. The second aspect, in addition to costing all the requests we receive, is to cost them in a timely manner, recognizing that for political parties what can be happening on the hustings is potentially happening a little more quickly and dynamically than in the timelines within which we usually work.

Coming back to a point the PBO made earlier, I think that probably the most important or a very important issue will be the perceived credibility of our responses, to the extent that our cost estimates are seen by all political partes and the general public as being relatively straightforward, non-contentious, not generating additional discussion, and that Canadians are able to focus on the policies rather than the numbers and have more meaningful discussions around them. This is something else we'll be watching and measuring as well.

[The Joint Chair, Liberal, Gagan Sikand]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Ouellette.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'd like to ask a brief question.

Will all of the reports be released at the same time during the elections, or do you intend to stagger the process over a certain period of time?

I have another comment to make. I remember that when you testified at the Standing Committee on Finance you said that you expected all departments to actively co-operate. In your estimation, Mr. Fréchette, no department will refuse to participate in calculating the final cost of these election platforms. Is that correct?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

You have a good memory.

Yes, the reports will be provided to the different political parties over a certain period of time. We said that there would be set timelines to obtain the information. The reports will be given to the political parties in the order in which we receive the information. That does not mean that we will make those reports public. The political party that receives our report can keep it, and not release it publicly. As long as the political party does not release it publicly, we cannot do anything. We will be discreet and we will keep our report confidential.

As for co-operation, I am convinced that the departments will want to take part in the process. As I said, we are negotiating with certain departments such as the Department of Finance, so that we can develop a process to protect everyone, both the reputation of PBO and the department. These departments will have to co-operate in the process since this is set out in the legislation. It mentions that the minister must provide authorization to his deputy minister to co-operate in the process or not. If ministers systematically refuse, deputy ministers will not co-operate. So, it will be difficult to respect the legislation.

[The Joint Chair, Liberal, Gagan Sikand]

Thank you for your response.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here.

We're going to momentarily suspend for the next panel.

[The Joint Chair, Liberal, Gagan Sikand]

Welcome back.

Madam L'Heureux, you have 10 minutes for your opening statement.

[Sonia L'Heureux, Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament]

Thank you, Mr. Joint Chair.

Honourable senators, members of Parliament, joint chairs, it is my pleasure to address the committee today regarding the impact on the Library of Parliament of the upcoming closure of Centre Block planned as part of the Long Term Vision and Plan.

I am accompanied today by Catherine MacLeod, Assistant Parliamentary Librarian, who has been overseeing this initiative for the library.

Centre Block is closing for at least a decade, which will have a significant impact on the library. The impact is both a challenge and an opportunity. It's a challenge in terms of the detailed analysis and decision-making that have been a significant focus for us for the past several years. It's also an opportunity as the physical change to our space has provided the impetus to rethink our support to Parliament and to modernize how we deliver products and services.

To adapt to our future new reality, the library is implementing major projects in four areas.

First, we will relocate the main library's collections among several locations.

Second, we are modernizing reference services and refreshing library space by renovating and opening new branches.

Third, we are redesigning how we welcome visitors to Parliament Hill so that they continue to have a high-quality experience at the new visitor welcome centre, West Block, and the Government Conference Centre.

Finally, we are developing a virtual experience of Parliament that will showcase Centre Block during the years of its closure.

I would like to start with the most visible change, the closure of the Main Library in Centre Block.

The Main Library will close for the duration of the Centre Block rehabilitation, and the collection will be moved.

We have done this before when the Main Library was renovated in the early 2000s and we can therefore build on that experience.

The collections will be distributed among several branches according to branch specializations and user needs.

The bulk of the main library's collection, including the rare books, will be transferred to 45 Sacré-Coeur in Gatineau. This space was used when we renovated the library in the early 2000s and is currently being upgraded to house the collections when Centre Block closes.

Current levels of service for physical delivery of collection items to users will be maintained. The library is revising its delivery model to respond to an anticipated increase in requests for digital material. For example, we are increasing our electronic collection and digitizing more parliamentary publications to modernize our service to Parliament.

The temporary closure of the main library has been a catalyst for the modernization of our reference services, something libraries worldwide are doing as they rethink what it means to be a library in the Internet age.

We will increase the number of points of service, focusing on offering more inviting and comfortable seating, multipurpose work and meeting spaces, technological innovations, and additional electronic resources to enhance user experience.

The library is currently working with colleagues in PSPC, the Senate, and the House of Commons to plan the library's new branches in the Government Conference Centre and in the West Block. Overall, the library will be located to assist parliamentarians where they work.

Our points of service will include existing branches at 125 Sparks Street and in the Confederation Building, the new branch that has opened in the Wellington Building, and the future branches in the West Block and in the Government Conference Centre.

The new design for our branches was piloted with the Wellington branch. It is a stunning place. Natural light reflects from the skylight off the copper walls to create a warm, elegant environment.

Parliamentarians and staff are using the collaborative work areas, individual study areas and meeting room. It is an inviting space from which to browse our collection of magazines and newspapers, relax in comfortable seating or work between committee meetings. In the first year since its opening, over 3,000 people used the reading room and close to 700 came to the reference desk to ask questions.

The 125 Sparks Street branch, which is a former bank between O'Connor and Metcalfe, will be our main branch during the Centre Block closure. The 125 Sparks Street branch will be a place for parliamentarians to meet and collaborate with colleagues, constituents, and other stakeholders or work privately in the reading room area with its comfortable chairs and sofas.

Parliamentarians and their staff will be able to stay connected to current events through a wide selection of newspapers, magazines, and television broadcasts from the new state-of-the-art media wall that will be installed in the branch. The branch will also offer parliamentarians an opportunity to browse our collection using mobile devices. It's truly a library of the future, and currently, it is undergoing renovations and is scheduled to reopen in August.

In addition, the library is realigning visitor services for Parliament.

After the closure of Centre Block, guided tours will be offered at the Government Conference Centre for the Senate and the West Block for the House of Commons.

The public will also be able to see Parliament at work by attending debates in the public galleries and by observing committee meetings.

Guided tours of both the Government Conference Centre and West Block will include the interim chambers of the Senate and the House of Commons, with stops in the public galleries and on the chamber floors. The tours will also visit a committee room and learn about the transformation of the heritage buildings that will house each chamber.

An electronic ticketing system will also be launched to support the operation of the guided tours from both locations. Parliament will have a permanent visitor welcome centre. Its opening will coincide with the opening of the West Block. The new underground facility will become the front door for visitors at the West Block.

The Visitor Welcome Centre will be a modern, four-level underground complex which will include spaces to support visitor services, such as an information desk, a tour departure room and the Parliamentary Boutique.

As I mentioned in my last appearance at this committee, tours of historical rooms at East Block will also be maintained.

In parallel, to mitigate the closure of Centre Block, the library is creating a virtual experience to give Canadians the opportunity to access and explore Centre Block during its closure. We are working in partnership with the National Film Board of Canada to develop and produce this exciting project. Carleton University's immersive media studio and Public Services and Procurement Canada are also involved.

The virtual experience project has three components. First, the public will be able to access a web-based multimedia experience that will include a 2-D website and a 3-D virtual reality production featuring the public spaces of Centre Block. It will highlight the art, architecture, and functions of Parliament that are so familiar to us.

Second, for teachers and youth, a travelling classroom program will include teacher resources and virtual reality equipment that will be shipped to schools across Canada so that children can visit a virtual Parliament in their classrooms.

Third, an on-site visitor destination, using cutting-edge technology, will immerse visitors in a projected virtual experience of Parliament at a location in the national capital region near Parliament Hill.

All of the library LTVP projects are currently on track. This is an exciting time for us as the closure of Centre Block has revealed itself to be a true opportunity to think towards the future and evolve how we serve you.

Thank you for inviting us to appear before you today. We will be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Joint Chair, Liberal, Gagan Sikand]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Ouellette.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

I simply have a few comments and questions about the manner in which the guided tours for the public will be managed at the new visitor centre.

When visitors come to the House to listen to the debates, especially in groups, do you know if they will have to leave the room, as is currently the case for groups of young people who are forced to leave after 30 minutes? Naturally, when I speak to these groups about their experience here, they tell me that they would have liked to stay longer to listen to these debates, but that is not possible.

So, how are you co-operating with security to ensure that the educational experience will be exemplary, and secondly, that security will be respected?

[Sonia L'Heureux]

There are some differences between Centre Block and the new spaces. The new spaces are smaller and access to certain places is restricted for visitors.

For instance, when the House sits, we will not be able to have guided tours for groups in both houses. So, it will not be possible for participants in these guided tours to listen to debates when the House sits.

However, if a visitor who is not a part of a guided tour group wants to go to the galleries to listen to debates, that will continue to be possible.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

How many seats do you believe will be available for the public in the new gallery? The educative experience is quite important. I think you're doing this educational outreach, which sounds absolutely fantastic, with the virtual element and trying to go to the Canadian public outside of Parliament. If someone actually takes time, though, to come here and wants to see question period, how many people can attend question period and stay for the entire time? Not only while the Prime Minister is speaking but for the final questions by the independents, for some of the motions at the end, and for some of the debates if they want to stay a bit longer? How do they get that full experience, not just the QP experience?

[Sonia L'Heureux]

I do not have the number of seats, in either the House of Commons or the Senate. That's something we would have to consult on with our colleagues in the two administrations and come back to the committee with that information.