Evidence of meeting #17 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was disorder.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jennifer Chandler  Professor, As an Individual
Joint Chair  Hon. Yonah Martin (Senator, British Columbia, C)
Marie-Françoise Mégie  Senator, Quebec (Rougemont), ISG
Stanley Kutcher  Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG
Pierre Dalphond  Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG
Donna Stewart  Professor, University of Toronto, Senior Scientist, Toronto General Research Institute, Centre for Mental Health, As an Individual
Doris Provencher  General Director, Association des groupes d'intervention en défense de droits en santé mentale du Québec

September 27th, 2022 / 6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Good evening. I would like to call this meeting to order.

Welcome to the meeting of the Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying.

I welcome the committee members, our witness and those watching this meeting on the web.

My name is Mark Garneau, and I am the House of Commons joint co‑chair of this committee. I am joined by the Honourable Yonah Martin, the Senate joint co-chair.

Today we are continuing our examination of the statutory review of the provisions of the Criminal Code relating to medical assistance in dying and their application.

I'd like to remind members and witnesses to keep their microphones muted unless recognized by name by one of the joint chairs. Just as a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the joint chairs. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. Interpretation in this video conference will work like an in-person committee meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French.

With that, I would like to welcome our witness for panel one, who is here to discuss MAID when a mental disorder is the sole underlying medical condition.

Welcome to Professor Jennifer Chandler, who is a professor of law at the University of Ottawa.

Thank you for joining us.

We'll begin with your opening remarks, Professor Chandler. You will have five minutes, which will be followed by a question period.

We'll go over to you, Professor Chandler.

6:30 p.m.

Professor Jennifer Chandler Professor, As an Individual

First, thank you very much to the committee for having me here today. It's an honour to address you, and I hope the remarks I can contribute will be helpful to you in your consideration of a difficult issue.

As Mr. Garneau mentioned, my name is Jennifer Chandler. I'm a full professor of law at the University of Ottawa, where I teach health law and specialize in mental health law, neuroethics, issues around brain interventions and the law.

I am speaking as an individual, of course, and don't represent the university or the expert advisory panel of which I was a member, nor do I represent the views of the CCA panel, of which I was also a member.

I was thinking to myself what I could say in these opening remarks that would be of use to this group in light of what other witnesses before me have brought to you, and have done an excellent job bringing to you. I thought that perhaps, given that I'm a lawyer, I would speak from a legal perspective and talk about the question of discrimination, because this is invoked as a central issue in trying to decide what to do about eligibility of people with an SUMC, sole underlying medical condition, being mental disorder.

At the moment, as you know, the law excludes a particular category of people from eligibility, namely, those suffering solely from mental disorder. This exclusion is defined on the basis of a specific class of disability.

There are two arguments out there, which you have heard, about how this is or is not discriminatory.

One view holds that excluding a group of people is discriminatory when done on the basis of mental disability, because it withholds from them a benefit or an option that's available to others, and this is unjustified when they meet all the other eligibility criteria that others meet.

Another view holds that offering medical assistance in dying to people with disabilities, including mental disabilities, is discriminatory because it exposes them and only them, people with disabilities, to an increased risk of death by suggesting perhaps that death might be a good option in their circumstances and/or by making it easier for them to access death.

In other words, then, to summarize, in one case we have access to an option that's viewed as a benefit, which is unfairly withheld, and on the other hand access to an option, which is a harm, which is unfairly imposed. How does one reconcile these views?

I think one can be confident that people holding both of these views hold them in good faith and strongly believe in the justice of the view they're espousing with respect to discrimination.

In fact, as you've heard—I was watching the proceedings from Friday—people with lived experience hold these these opposing views as well.

I propose to offer a few thoughts from a legal perspective on how these opposing views, what's discriminatory and what is just or unjust in these circumstances, can be reconciled. Evidently, my view is a legal one and should be tempered with the insights of those with lived experience and those who provide care, and in recognition that others might differ with my reading of the cases and my interpretation of the law.

Essentially the Supreme Court of Canada has had to address this particular problem on multiple occasions in the past of whether differential treatment of a group with a disability is discriminatory. In those cases, it has noted the challenge of what it came to call the “difference dilemma”. In essence, what this alludes to is that in some cases to achieve equality, to promote dignity, it's necessary to treat people differently, whereas in others it's necessary to treat them in the same way.

To give you a concrete example from a case involving segregated schooling for children with severe physical disabilities, the court said that a separate or segregated stream of schooling could protect equality or violate equality depending upon the needs, capacities and circumstances of the particular child in question.

This difference dilemma means it's very hard to point to exact same treatment or differential treatment to really get at this question of what best promotes equality.

How then do we figure it out?

If you look at the range of questions that has come to the Supreme Court posing this particular type of problem in a range of cases, whether it's schooling or whether it's access to particular workers' compensation benefits for physical versus mental injuries, my reading is that the Supreme Court is quite uncomfortable with blanket attributions of a specific set of needs capacities and circumstances to a group as a whole. It is very much more likely to be comfortable with a regime, if it is possible to do so, that provides for individualized assessments to verify that any presumptions are in fact accurate in individual cases.

We come to the blanket exclusion of all people with mental disorders. This would seem to be a problem. This is a very heterogeneous group of people with very different needs, capacities and circumstances. The question I think for you is, do criteria in the Criminal Code, along with recommended measures that the expert advisory panel put in place, offer an adequate framework to do this kind of individualized assessment safely? I think so. I was a member of that expert advisory panel, so, of course, I would think that we had put something forward that could work, with certain caveats that I'd like to draw to your attention.

This question of adequate funding is a key safeguard. It's an adequate funding question in two directions. Adequate funding of social supports is key to ensuring that those who can be supported, whose suffering can be alleviated, will have the opportunity to have it alleviated. A good and compassionate society will try to do its best to help those who are struggling. At the same time, we have to note that there are situations in which just about any social supports will not be sufficient to alleviate intolerable suffering.

In a second way, adequate funding pertains to the kind of funding that's available to assessors and the infrastructure made available for assessors to do a careful and thorough assessment. The kind of thorough multidisciplinary assessment required here involves a long process and multiple people involved in coordinating a range of potential supports. This will take time and resources to do properly.

If those funds are not available, I see a twin risk. One, people will withdraw from providing assessments to people who are suffering intolerably, because they won't feel that they can do it properly, or conversely, some might do a rushed assessment with risk in the other direction.

I think the kinds of things we put forward in our report with respect to the infrastructure are quite important to consider and to put in place within the realm of what's reasonable and possible.

The other safeguard—

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Sorry, Professor, but could you wrap it up, please, so we can get to the questions.

6:35 p.m.

Prof. Jennifer Chandler

Certainly.

I was just going to say that the other safeguard that is critical is the detailed collection of information. I understand the reporting regulations are being amended to come into force this January, with the addition of a range of other details which will be exceptionally important in having the actual data about what's happening, as opposed to guessing about what might be happening.

Thank you.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Professor.

I'll now turn it over to my co-chair, Senator Martin.

6:40 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin (Senator, British Columbia, C)

Thank you to my co-chair.

We'll go into the first round of questions with MPs. For the first five minutes, I have Mr. Barrett starting us off.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Thanks, Madam Joint Chair.

Good afternoon, Professor, and thank you very much for joining us.

We have limited time and I'd like to get through a couple questions with you, if I could. I'm going to read them to be succinct as well.

First, in my reading of the expert panel report, it appears that there's a contradiction I would like you to help me resolve. I'll paraphrase, but it says that the current legal framework can apply to MAID where mental disorder is the sole underlying medical condition, with no new legislation or additional safeguards, but it also says that irremediability in the case of MD-SUMC is difficult, if not impossible, to predict. The report fails to offer evidence that it is possible, or provide specific guidelines on how to determine it.

In order for a person to be eligible for MAID, irremediability must be determined. How do we reconcile this challenge? Without a clearly defined road map in determining that a person's mental disorder is irremediable, it would seem that MAID with mental disorder as the sole underlying medical condition is not compatible with the existing law.

6:40 p.m.

Prof. Jennifer Chandler

I'd say two things.

As a point of clarification, the term “irremediable” is not a medical or scientific term. It's a legal term that's been put into a piece of legislation, and in fact is defined in the law in terms of incurability and so forth, the three sub parts.

Together, the question you raised is a good one. What degree of certainty do we have to have with respect to the future in order to satisfy that criteria? I think it's going to be impossible to have absolute certainty. It's also going to be impossible to be certain in any individual case, if one were to gather group data that on average a specific set of characteristics is a certain percentage likelihood to be incurable or not. It will be hard from that average group to be certain that it applies to any one individual.

It's clear that 100% certainty cannot be what's meant by the legislation, nor achievable in any case. We're left with the question of how much certainty, and on what basis of what type of evidence do we think we have met these legal criteria of incurability, non-alleviability, and so forth.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

I appreciate that, and thank you for that succinct answer to a pretty broad question.

It's important to note that in the final report it does say that the evolution of an individual's mental disorder cannot be predicted as it can for certain types of cancers, for example. I think that is certainly a challenge.

My next question is with respect to media reports. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this, but this summer there were CBC reports about a woman from Ottawa who had applied for MAID three times—two times before the passage of Bill C-7 and then one time since the eligibility was expanded. This individual was denied each time, but then was connected to a MAID assessor in Toronto, and she was approved for MAID.

Does it concern you that different MAID assessors are coming to different conclusions with respect to what conditions are acceptable for MAID and that kind of shopping around for an assessor who's going to give them the answer they're looking for instead of one that's based on the intent of the law?

6:40 p.m.

Prof. Jennifer Chandler

I'm afraid I don't know the details of the case you're referring to, so I'm not sure I can give a perfectly tailored answer.

In order to answer that question, I would want to go and look at what might have changed between those assessments to determine if there was any justification for a different result. If nothing had changed, then perhaps we should look at that in one way. If there had been new evidence that had come to light, that would also be relevant.

I think one of the recommendations that we made was that collateral information and the existence of prior requests should be accessible to subsequent assessors to inform them and to also shed light on repeated assessments so that this could be determined, evaluated.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

I think that's just about it for my first round. Thanks very much.

6:45 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Next we will have Mr. Maloney for five minutes.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Thanks, Madam Joint Chair.

Professor Chandler, thank you for joining us this evening. I'm going to ask questions very similar to what Mr. Barrett just put to you.

You talk about discrimination. If you exclude somebody solely on the basis of their condition, that is discrimination. The issue is whether or not that discrimination is justified. I will put this to you as a statement, and you can tell me whether you disagree or not.

If the basis for the discrimination of not including people with mental disorders is that the risk is high enough that the process could be wrong, that would be a justified basis for excluding them, perhaps. Is that a fair comment?

6:45 p.m.

Prof. Jennifer Chandler

I think so, except I would have trouble with saying that solely about mental disorders. The reason for that is that people with mental disorders are already included if they have a physical disability, for example.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

I was going to get to that, yes.

6:45 p.m.

Prof. Jennifer Chandler

So, it's hard to regard it, the risk of error, to be unreasonably elevated in one context and not in the other. We'd have to explain that difference.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Right. I was going to get to that in a moment, so I'll go there now.

If a patient has terminal cancer but also has a mental disorder, as the law currently stands and as it did under Bill C-14 and Bill C-7, that person could qualify for MAID solely on the basis of the cancer diagnosis, but if they are not excluded from having access because they also have a mental disorder. That's the state of the law, correct?

6:45 p.m.

Prof. Jennifer Chandler

Yes.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Okay. Then the question in that scenario becomes whether or not the mental condition is driving them to make that decision more so than it would, perhaps, if they didn't have a mental condition. Is that fair?

6:45 p.m.

Prof. Jennifer Chandler

To my knowledge, the courts have said that assessment of suffering has to be made on the basis of the totality of the circumstances and is not to be tied to one particular condition that the person might have.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

As the law stands, if the one condition is a mental disorder, they wouldn't qualify at all. I'm saying that, as the law stands now, it's not a barrier as opposed to giving them access to the process.

Let me go back. You referred to some examples of Supreme Court of Canada cases where the Supreme Court dealt with discrimination in situations dealing with schools or receiving benefits. That's markedly different from terminating one's life, I would say, so I'm not sure that those cases are.... It's not apples and apples, if I can put it that way.

We get into this situation where, as you said, “irremediable” is a legal term, not a medical term. What we're talking about is whether a mental disorder is permanent and cannot be cured, which would allow a person to qualify for MAID. That's the heart of what we're talking about.

In order to do that, you need to have certain protections built into the system, so you need to be confident that doctors assessing somebody with a mental disorder are as capable of making that assessment as doctors who are dealing with somebody who has cancer, to use the example I referred to earlier.

Are you confident, based on your experience through the panel process and whatnot, that there are safeguards in place enough that it will work with people with solely mental disorders?

6:45 p.m.

Prof. Jennifer Chandler

Yes, I think I am. I want to step back to say that I think we shouldn't perhaps be comparing the cases of sole SUMC with cancer cases. We should perhaps be comparing the track two-type cases of physical disability with track two-type cases of sole underlying condition being a mental disorder. In both those cases, there are often uncertainties about whether a person will come to have suffering that's alleviated with the prognosis and so forth.

To me, the question would be, can we separate out the treatment of mental disorder and leave in place the physical disability cases on track two? That is one point to justify. The other thing I would say in response is, if we stay with the comparison of the cancer cases and the solely mental disorder cases, we already have cases where people with a mental disorder, as you point out, have a cancer and are seeking MAID. We have to assess capacity in that context, so one presumes that one can assess capacity across both types, and doctors have experience in assessing capacity in solely mental disorder cases as of other high-stake decisions of refusing—

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

I'm running out of time, but the difference is there when there's another medical condition. You're assessing capacity. If it's solely the medical disorder, you're not just assessing capacity, you're assessing the permanent nature of the condition, so it's a little bit different. Is that fair?

6:50 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you, Mr. Maloney.

Next we will go to Monsieur Thériault for five minutes.

6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome, Ms Chandler.

You participated in the expert report. I followed your presentation establishing the principles on the issue of discrimination, and I understand them very well.

Am I wrong in saying that the recommendations were designed to become the way to proceed so that the process would be morally and ethically acceptable in the event that eligibility for medical assistance in dying is not questioned? So, at the end of the day, these are guidelines.

Am I correct in saying that the recommendations are intended as guidelines?