Evidence of meeting #6 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was request.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joint Chair  Hon. Yonah Martin, Senator, British Columbia, C
Louise Bernier  Professor, Faculty of Law, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
Trudo Lemmens  Professor, Scholl Chair, Health Law and Policy, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Danielle Chalifoux  Lawyer and Chair, Institut de planification des soins du Québec
Stan Kutcher  Senator, Nova Scotia, ISG
Marie-Françoise Mégie  Senator, Quebec (Rougemont), ISG
Pamela Wallin  Senator, Saskatchewan (Saskatchewan), CSG
Pierre Dalphond  Senator, Quebec (De Lorimier), PSG
Jocelyn Downie  University Research Professor, Faculties of Law and Medicine, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
Catherine Ferrier  Physician, Division of Geriatric Medicine, McGill University Health Centre, As an Individual
Susan MacDonald  Associate Professor of Medicine and Family Medicine, Memorial University, As an Individual
Romayne Gallagher  Clinical Professor, Palliative Medicine, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Lilian Thorpe  Professor, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Laurent Boisvert  Physician, As an Individual

May 9th, 2022 / 6:50 p.m.

Danielle Chalifoux Lawyer and Chair, Institut de planification des soins du Québec

Senators and members, thank you for inviting me.

I have been a member of the Barreau du Québec since 1985 and, since 2010, chair of the Institut de planification des soins du Québec, which is particularly interested in the seniors' rights and medical assistance in dying.

I have published many articles on those topics and have sat on numerous expert panels and government and parliamentary commissions.

I have also conducted studies on nursing care and practice, mainly in CHSLDs and palliative care homes, which has helped me understand the issues in a more practical way.

Given the time allotted me, my comments will focus solely on potential statutory amendments respecting advance requests for medical assistance in dying.

First of all, I would emphasize that rescinding the reasonably foreseeable natural death criterion has resulted in a considerable increase in the number of persons able to access medical assistance in dying. For those with cognitive disorders, for example, it is now sufficient for their grievous and irremediable health condition to be accompanied by an advanced state of irreversible decline in capacity and suffering that they obviously consider intolerable, provided they are still sufficiently capable.

I would note that the Canadian Association of MAiD Assessors and Providers, which really is the authority in this field in Canada, considers that the imminent loss of capacity associated with neurocognitive disorders must be considered as an advanced state of irreversible decline in capacity. When the loss of capacity is anticipated in the near future, these persons may then request and receive medical assistance in dying contemporaneously.

In addition to this option, it would also be possible to make an advance request for medical assistance in dying. These individuals would thus have two options.

Now I would like to draw your attention to the fact that some people recommend granting medical assistance in dying solely to persons who, before making a request, have received a diagnosis of neurocognitive degenerative disorder.

If Parliament adopted such a restriction, that would mean that victims of sudden and unforeseeable impairment that may result in a loss of capacity, such as stroke and severe cranial trauma, would be excluded as they clearly would not previously have obtained a diagnosis. The Institut de planification des soins du Québec believes that the adoption of such a restriction would be neither legitimate nor lawful.

This restriction would be illegitimate because it would run counter to the opinion of a very large majority of citizens. In the public consultation that the Quebec government recently conducted in the course of its work, 91.8% of respondents were in favour of advance requests for medical assistance in dying in the event of sudden and unforeseeable incidents resulting in a loss of capacity.

This restriction would also be unlawful in our view because it would contravene section 1 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and at least two of the tests established in the Oakes judgment. It would contravene Parliament's obligation to impair rights as little as possible because appropriate and far less draconian safeguards could be adopted. It would also contravene the proportionality test as the benefits would be more operational, but the deleterious effects would amount to a negation of recognized rights, both the right to self-determination of persons and the right to medical assistance in dying.

In conclusion, if Parliament adopted such a restriction preventing medical assistance in dying from being granted to persons who have obtained a prior diagnosis, all victims of a sudden and unforeseen impairment would be deprived of their rights. Thus, the first class of persons that we discussed earlier would have two options, to make a contemporaneous or an advance request for medical assistance in dying, whereas persons unable to make an advance request before obtaining a diagnosis would have none.

6:55 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you…

6:55 p.m.

Lawyer and Chair, Institut de planification des soins du Québec

Danielle Chalifoux

I just have one sentence left.

I believe that this requirement could be struck down, somewhat as was the case of the requirement of reasonably foreseeable natural death in the Truchon and Gladu case.

Thank you for your attention.

6:55 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin

Thank you.

I will turn this over to our co-chair for the first round of questions for MPs and for senators.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you very much, Senator Martin.

We will now begin the first round of questions, during which each speaker will have five minutes.

Ms. Viens, go ahead for five minutes.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair and Madam Chair.

I want to thank our guests for being with us this evening.

Ms. Bernier, you were on a roll a little earlier on the topic of the third part of your presentation. So I want to let you finish what you were saying. You were discussing the importance of continuing to provide care. I'll give you the floor for a few seconds, after which I'll ask you my questions.

6:55 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual

Louise Bernier

Thank you very much. I'm grateful for that. This will allow me to explain my final point and round out my remarks.

If we, as a society, choose to expand access to medical assistance in dying, we must not downplay the impact that could have on the more social aspect of the autonomy that's exercised.

We must consider the effect that an expansion of access to medical assistance in dying would have on social perceptions of illness. No one who receives a diagnosis of neurocognitive degenerative disease should feel that he or she is expected to request medical assistance in dying now that it's being offered. We must also continue to invest in providing parallel care, as Mr. Lemmens said, to ensure that those who make a different choice continue to receive care, that there is no interruption of care and that there is no therapeutic abandonment.

That's the point I wanted to make. I'm very pleased to have had the opportunity to do so because it was really important for me to discuss the societal aspect of this issue. It should not become the ideal option, and we must not abandon people who don't make that choice.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Ms. Bernier, are you completely comfortable with advance requests?

6:55 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual

Louise Bernier

The more I examine the issue, the less certain I actually am. It's my occupation, so…

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

That's what I sensed as I listened to your presentation.

6:55 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual

Louise Bernier

Actually, it's not that I'm uncomfortable with advance requests; I'm more uncomfortable if there isn't an appropriate mechanism. The fact remains that an advance decision isn't made on the spot; it's a decision that people make, as best they can, in advance of a situation, based on the knowledge at their disposal.

I don't think I'm qualified to judge whether its appropriate to expand access to medical assistance in dying. If that's where we now stand, and a large segment of society thinks it's a good idea, that's fine. However, I think there'll have to be a lot of guidelines and support measures.

My studies focus on consent, individual autonomy and relational autonomy. You have to understand that decisions aren't made in isolation. The decision or wish to receive care, for example, is part of a dynamic that includes caregivers and family members.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Earlier, in the second part of your presentation, you said it was extremely important to provide adequate support and not to leave the people to their own devices.

Have you witnessed or heard of any deviations from that rule? Has anyone not been informed of all aspects of the process?

7 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual

Louise Bernier

Deviations necessarily occur. It's more that I see a lot of major problems in our advance medical directives system these days. People are left to their own devices. Patients are told that it's easy, that all they have to do is sign, and it's assumed that they're informed.

I think this is a golden opportunity to establish a mechanism, and we really need to seize it.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

I see.

Thank you very much, Ms. Bernier.

Good evening, Ms. Chalifoux. Thank you for being with us this evening.

You say it shouldn't be necessary to get a diagnosis beforehand. You laid out your arguments on that point.

However, I'm interested in what's happened in Quebec, and unless I'm mistaken, Ms. Chalifoux, Quebec hasn't gone that far. We're waiting for the party in power to table the bill once the committee has done its work. At any event, we aren't going as far as you and other individuals suggest. We're saying yes to advance requests in cases of neurodegenerative conditions, but if, and only if, a diagnosis has been established.

7 p.m.

Lawyer and Chair, Institut de planification des soins du Québec

Danielle Chalifoux

That's correct.

I'd like to tell you from the outset that I share Ms. Bernier's x opinion on support. Having worked in the nursing field and seen some of what happens in palliative care homes, in particular, I can't overemphasize how important the quality of free and informed consent is with regard to advance requests. Terms and conditions must absolutely be established so that, when people consider making an advance request, they can get references and discuss the matter. It's not enough just to complete a form. People really need to discuss it so they can see all the ins and outs and carefully reflect on the matter.

I absolutely share that opinion.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Joint Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Ms. Chalifoux

I now give the floor to Mr. Arseneault for five minutes.

7 p.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Chalifoux, since my colleague Ms. Viens' questions are very interesting, I'm going to give you an opportunity to provide some more details.

7 p.m.

Lawyer and Chair, Institut de planification des soins du Québec

Danielle Chalifoux

We still don't really know the scope of the bill that will emerge from the work of the National Assembly committee charged with examining the evolution of medical assistance in dying. It will probably tend to be more restrictive such that only individuals who have received a prior diagnosis will be able to request such assistance.

7 p.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

So you're saying you must have a diagnosis even before you can make an advance request.

7 p.m.

Lawyer and Chair, Institut de planification des soins du Québec

Danielle Chalifoux

I think that's what they're getting ready to do in Quebec. However, I have to say I completely disagree.

7 p.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

In a few words, what form do you think the preparation process should take to ensure that people who request medical assistance in dying truly make an informed decision?

7 p.m.

Lawyer and Chair, Institut de planification des soins du Québec

Danielle Chalifoux

When I appeared before the select committee that was studying the evolution of the Act respecting end-of-life care, I suggested that some sort of agency be established to do all the work involved in informing and training the people concerned, somewhat as what the Canadian Association of MAiD Assessors and Providers does on the anglophone side. I think we should have something like that.

7 p.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Ms. Bernier, I want to continue along those lines with you.

Earlier you said we need to ensure the process is overseen by health professionals. Personally, I come from a rural region. People in urban areas have access to all kinds of professionals, whereas you may have to wait a year and a half to see one of those professionals in a rural region. So this really troubles me.

I'd like to ensure that people in the rural regions, the remote or northern regions, can get the same services as people in urban areas. So I'd like you to tell me exactly what you mean when you refer to professionals.

7 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual

Louise Bernier

There are actually various categories of professionals. As Ms. Chalifoux said, they may be people who've been trained in various health fields and have received some accreditation, although I really think that should become a kind of health care standard. These people have received a diagnosis and will therefore have follow-up…

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Pardon me for interrupting. So a nurse practitioner trained for that purpose would do. Is that correct?