Evidence of meeting #8 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was position.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Walter Semianiw  Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

Noon

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

It will be clear to you why I ask that. I will fit two questions into one.

For example, if a colonel has a budget in a specific area, can he carry it over from one year to the next?

Why do I ask you that? Because, in some departments, if there is a surplus in the annual budget, no more than 5% can be carried over to the following or to subsequent years.

Is it possible that, in some cases, colonels or generals with a surplus are creating class B positions in order not to lose their budget capacity—in other words, to ensure that their budget envelope will be fully spent, something that is regularly seen elsewhere?

Noon

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

The answer is that you cannot have a surplus and use the surplus to hire class B people.

Noon

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Why?

Noon

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

Remember, it comes back to the length of the contract.

Contracts can be one year, two years or three years in length.

In many cases, the time is driven in part by how much money you have.

If you have enough money for three years, then in that case, you may want a three-year contract.

If you do a three-year contract, you are committing to the fact that you're going to have that money in your budget.

That is the challenge.

If you look at how priorities change—and that's what we're starting to see right now, the priorities are changing across the Canadian Forces—people who are in class B are being let go, which is why they're beginning to raise a number of questions: “What happened here? What happened to my job?” Well, there is no more job.

So across my organization, as I change my priorities, the policy guideline I put out is that all contracts will be respected until the end of the contract. At the end of the contract, we'll sit down and take a look at the need and see whether we will continue it.

Did I answer your question?

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

We move now to Mr. Martin.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'm sharing my time with my colleague Mr. Wilfert.

General Semianiw, I have a couple of quick questions. Getting back to shortening your recruitment process, I know there were a couple of things that were challenges to us. One was the medical checkup process.

When I used to do medical checkups for pilots, we had a special checkup for them. So I thought maybe a way to shorten this would be to have the potential recruit get the kind of checkup that the Canadian Forces wants, done by the person's own family physician, because that family physician would know that individual much better than somebody in the forces.

12:05 p.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

My second question is on the security checks.

The security check that potential RCMP officers go through lasts, I believe, just a few days. One suggestion to shorten the Canadian Forces' security check was that maybe a preliminary check would be sufficient to get that person through the initial recruitment process, before they get a C7 in their hands, and while that person is getting their hands dirty and into the process, the more substantive check could happen in parallel.

12:05 p.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

Thanks for that great question.

We actually had three pilots ongoing. The first was a medical pilot, with a trial in B.C. We wanted to reduce the number of medical doctors and physicians needed in the recruiting system. We ran a pilot, and it was successful. We paid a number of doctors in the Vancouver area to conduct the medicals for us.

I would only challenge the idea or notion that you can have your own doctor do it. We want to make sure a third independent party has a chance to look at you, versus your family doctor, to ensure that it's open, honest, and transparent.

We've done the pilot. We're looking at rolling the pilot across the country, where we have civilian doctors who have had some form of training from us and know exactly what they're looking for to speed up the process. That piece is actually done.

The second one was on the issue of fitness, which you didn't touch on. We removed fitness testing from the Canadian Forces recruiting system. I don't know if you were aware of that. We reduced fitness testing. We instead established a fitness company at Saint-Jean. You now arrive at Saint-Jean and do your fitness test on day one. If you pass, you continue with the training. If you don't pass, we make you become fit. We took an old drill hall at Saint-Jean and put in physical fitness training equipment. We have physical trainers.

Last year, because of that approach, we selected 550 Canadians who would otherwise not have been selected. We made them fit. Originally, the idea was that it would take 90 days. Most now leave after 30 days. It has been another way to speed up the process and bring in more people.

The third is the security piece. We are actually partnered with BackCheck. BackCheck does some of that security piece for us. It's a Canadian company. We looked at that. I personally looked at it in the early days to ensure it was a Canadian company. It does some security screening for us. As you mentioned, it can't do everything to ensure that those who have a C7 rifle or ammunition are people who can use it responsibly, but it has helped to speed up the system.

We've done the three pilots. The fitness one has now been training for one year. We're continuing, as you've seen. We've only had one individual join the Canadian Forces to be part of the fitness company and then quit right after. It has been a huge success in the end. It's the same for the BackCheck security work, which has sped up the process to 48 hours. Many companies use BackCheck. The last one is the medical pilot, which we're going to roll out across the country.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you.

Yes, you have a minute.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You're becoming very liberal.

Mr. Hawn says that double-dipping isn't necessarily a bad thing. I would say many politicians could be accused of double-dipping. It's logical, obviously. If you were in one profession and you then retire, you take up another profession. I don't have a difficulty with that.

I think the Treasury Board Secretariat was very clear that contracts with former employees receiving government pensions may prompt accusations that public funds are being abused or influence is inappropriately exerted when the contract is awarded, particularly if those involved occupied more senior positions or took early retirement.

There's obviously a public perception. Part of our job and indeed your job is to explain why these people are coming on board and to respond accordingly. It's not an epidemic. As you indicated, it's now one in four, and it's continuing to go down, but I think it's part of public education.

12:10 p.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

I would agree.

Going back to the first part of the question, when you look for parliamentarians, the key is to look for people with expertise. You're all chosen by Canadians for your expertise and knowledge. I would take the same application and apply it to hiring folks for class B. They're hired given that expertise.

I think it's a great question. It's time to take a look at the policy. It's time to take a look at it all, given that things have changed. As we look at the new structure for the Canadian Forces, we need to look at the policy to ensure controls are in place for the selection process. It is and will be the next step. I would agree.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, General.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

I will now give the floor to Mr. Payne.

April 13th, 2010 / 12:10 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

General, welcome again to the committee.

I thank the other witnesses for coming as well.

General, Mr. Wilfert touched on the area that I wanted to approach regarding pages four and five of your submission and the timeframes. You talked about contracts for one year, two years, or three years. In your example, you talked about 330 days. Could you clarify what exactly happens when a reservist who is actually an annuitant is brought in?

12:10 p.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

Thank you for that question.

What does happen--and it's tied into the previous question--is that in the course of the Treasury Board regulations, you have to take a break. You'll hear folks who are in class B service say they are on their break period. During that point in time, they are not paid. During that point in time, they are actually not entitled to any benefits from the Canadian Forces, including medical benefits. They are actually out of the forces for that break, in accordance with that policy. That break takes them up to a year. So you end up losing these folks on class B throughout the year for this break in accordance with the Treasury Board regulations.

It is regulation that everyone has to have a break time. If you do not, it automatically pops up in the system that you have not had your break. Plus in many cases it gives you some time to get off on some leave.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Okay, thank you.

I will be sharing the rest of my time with Mr. Hawn.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you.

To go back to Mr. Wilfert's point, I'm a proud double-dipper. I think I earned my military pension, and I wasn't hired by Treasury Board; I was hired by my friends in Edmonton Centre. That's another story.

I just want to close a loop here, because we have gone around it a couple of times. There's some healthy skepticism about people and how they work the system and so on. With the level of oversight and the rank structure and the structure of the Canadian Forces, is it safe to say that anybody abusing the system, anybody gaming the system, would be caught by somebody in that chain?

12:10 p.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

The short answer is yes, they would. Especially someone in senior ranks would, because senior ranks, especially here in Ottawa, are very visible, very prominent. They would be, and it would be brought to the attention of those who would be hiring them.

At all rank levels, gaming, as I said, is possible. Anything is possible, but it is very visible, and it comes back to the individual. Who has the right to put in a grievance? You could write a grievance saying you don't think it was fair, or that you believe this person was picked unfairly, or this person was gaming the system. But I can tell you, in my almost three years as CMP--I leave this summer, on July 7th--I haven't had a redress come to my level on this issue. I haven't seen one instance of someone claiming at the end that they weren't treated fairly.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Every committee member can make his own decision, but in your view, should committee members be comfortable with the fact that this kind of process is fair and open and transparent and that violators will be caught?

12:10 p.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

MGen Walter Semianiw

I think committee members should be comfortable on two accounts. One, the current structures, policy, and process machinery in place is in place to ensure it is fair and that there is effective oversight. And we are even more confident that we are moving to something even better, perhaps one site where all reservists can come, or regular force or whoever wants to apply, and all of the skills and knowledge required are open. The names of those applying for this position would be there. The second piece we're working on is the selection process, and committee members should be confident in knowing that's where we are moving ahead, as they were on the recruiting and retention report.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

I would just like to say I would rather give up my military pension and roll that 31 years into my parliamentary pension, but I don't think the system would allow that.

12:15 p.m.

Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Mr. Bachand, please.