Evidence of meeting #14 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was soldiers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter J. Devlin  Chief of the Land Staff, Department of National Defence
Major Gino Moretti  Canadian Forces

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

You have the floor.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses, General and Sergeant-Major, for being here. It really is so important to our study to have you here. While I'm very sorry not to have been here for the first hour, I can see from your presentation that you've given us a couple of the major inputs that are going to be most useful for us by laying out exactly what constitutes readiness in the eyes of the army and how you're preparing for that.

Just by way of explanation, the Atlantic Council of Canada is having a conference with some of your colleagues over in the Pearson Building, so I was asked to make a presentation to them. I would much rather have been here from the start.

Peter, it's great to be with you. I think back to those days in Kabul when you were commanding the multinational brigade, and neither of us had any idea of just where that mission would be going in the years to come. So congratulations on the achievements then and everything you've done since then.

The same for you, Sergeant-Major Moretti. I know how important your role is in the army today.

I see from your introduction that you have covered a lot of ground, and I really want to just focus on one or two issues--not the prospect of a train wreck in Port Hope, which I'm sure has thoroughly alarmed Rick Norlock, whose riding includes Port Hope....

You just had one? Okay--and I know it was completely hypothetical, on your part.

But thinking of today's army, thinking of the challenges that we know you face, I want to ask about capabilities. How capable are we in the experience we've gained in Afghanistan, that we're trying to institutionalize in Gagetown, with regard to countering the threat of IEDs? I know you've touched on it. I know you know a lot about it. But it strikes me that wherever we go with boots on the ground, IEDs are going to be a part. Almost certainly, if it's more than peacekeeping, IEDs are going to be one of threats we face.

How do you feel we stand up compared to our past, also compared to our peers and allies?

10:10 a.m.

LGen Peter J. Devlin

Thank you.

We've already addressed, sir, just so you're aware, a bit of that issue. I would say that Canada stands in a position of strength. I believe it is tied to capabilities that have been institutionalized--whether they be the counter-IED task force, the counter-IED squadron as part of 4 ESR in Gagetown, or part of the ASIC, the all-source intelligence cells--in our approach to how aware we are of the battlefields and the challenges of tomorrow. I think it's tied to our relationship with our allies, and I did mention that we are hosting a counter-IED international symposium early next month in Quebec City.

So we have achieved what we need to achieve to be respectful of that threat, and again, we've had to make tough decisions to be able to balance capabilities with the resources that have been provided.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

My final question, Mr. Chair, is the related issue of intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance. We could have a whole study just on that. Obviously, Canada's capabilities through the acquisition of new vehicles, UAVs, and so forth have evolved and improved.

Situate us with regard to our peers in that frame. What are some of the choices and opportunities that may be available to the army and Canadian Forces in that area that would have an impact on our readiness?

10:10 a.m.

LGen Peter J. Devlin

Thank you very much; a great point.

You know, the army's strategy is called “advancing with purpose”, and it's a great title, in my somewhat biased view. We advance with purpose because of an understanding of the battlefield and the threat. It comes from a level of awareness that comes from UAVs. It comes from fighters that have a remarkable level of optics that provide detailed information on the threat and on the battlefield. It comes from balloons and towers. It comes from how we bring all those bits of information together. We assess it, and we advance with deliberate purpose.

I think as technology evolves, sir, the opportunities are tied to how we exploit space. It's how we can continue to grow our UAV capability. As I think you all know, it was leased over the period of time in Afghanistan. There is a project—one that I think the Canadian Forces needs to have to use UAVs—that is a few years out. Our challenge, like the challenge on the counter-IED front, is how we keep that level of awareness in the minds of commanders at all levels so that it's properly incorporated into training, so that when we do get those capabilities—or when we have access to those capabilities from our international partners—we are skilled at the use.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you. Your time has expired.

Before we move into the third round, I just have a few questions myself, General. You were talking about our LAVs and how important they are to our overall capabilities and readiness. It has been announced that we are doing upgrades to the LAV IIIs. How is that going to affect our deployment capabilities in the event we are called to go into action abroad again, with the timing of the retrofits that are taking place right now?

10:10 a.m.

LGen Peter J. Devlin

Thanks, sir. I again would emphasize the fact that the LAV III is the centre of our mechanized portion of our army. It's a great vehicle because, as Mr. Moretti said, our soldiers have confidence in the LAV III.

The upgrade contract has been signed. There are vehicles in Edmonton right now that are entering that line. They will pop out at the end sometime next year. It is November 2012 where we would have a battle group, that battle group being from 5 Brigade

in Valcartier and will be ready for a

mechanized deployment.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay, sir. Perfect.

I've actually had a chance to be in the LAV IIIs. In August I was out in Wainwright with reserves as they were on Maple Defender, I believe it was at that time. That 25-millimetre gun is accurate and can fire a great distance. I can see why it's such an intimidating factor having it on the LAVs.

I also had a chance to jump in with the Lord Strathcona Royal Canadians in a Leopard tank and fire the cannon on it and see how powerful those guns are. We are acquiring new Leopard tanks. When do they come into actual operation with the Canadian army?

10:15 a.m.

LGen Peter J. Devlin

With regard to the Leopard 2 tanks, there are two variants—the A4 and the A6. They have different levels of protection on the front and sides, and different lengths of barrel. It's an incredibly powerful platform. It is also one with a great optics package on it that allows that definition of the battlefield. Some of those tanks were overhauled by Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan prior to their being shipped home.

This weekend Mr. Moretti and I returned from Afghanistan, where we were able to meet and speak to those soldiers who were part of the mission transition task force. They took the Leopard 2 tanks we had there and took them apart, fixed them, and rebuilt them. They are en route back to our units as we speak.

Saying that, sir, it'll be spring or summer next year before we have an operational capability with those tanks. They've centralized. Individual training has been conducted to be able to have some capability. It's one that will grow as we move forward in time.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Both you and Sergeant-Major Moretti talk about how proud you are of our Canadian armed forces. Our soldiers are just incredible. I'm proud of all our Canadian soldiers, and airmen and airwomen, and all our sailors.

I'm also proud that my nephew has enrolled in the Canadian army and will be going to St. Jean in January. He's already done some of his preliminary training.

I'm curious when we talk about overall readiness, now that we're not out in the theatre anymore, is the retention of our soldiers and the recruitment of the next generation of soldiers going to be impacted in any way, shape, or form?

10:15 a.m.

LGen Peter J. Devlin

Thanks, sir. That's a great point.

Conflict and war are great for recruiting, to be quite honest with you. The lineups at the recruiting centre are long when there is anticipation of representing Canada powerfully in conflict. I suspect the lines will not be as long in the years ahead.

It is an issue that Mr. Moretti and I pay particular attention to. It's one of the reasons we believe we need to provide exciting, demanding training for our soldiers, to reward them professionally, and to keep their level of training and readiness for tomorrow at the appropriate level.

It's a great point and one we are aware of, and certainly it's one of the things I think about looking to tomorrow.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

We'll go to our third round.

Madame Moore.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you very much.

I would like to come back to what Mr. Kellway was saying about the fact that it is difficult to be all things to all people, all at the same time. I believe it is more important to ensure that we have people in Canada who are able to respond to every need, without it necessarily being the same people responding in each case.

Before I left the reserves, there had been changes. For example, with respect to armoured vehicles, it had been decided that Eastern Canada would specialize in reconnaissance operations and Western Canada would focus more on other kinds of operations, such as attacks.

I would like to know whether other similar divisions have been made, based on other combat arms or armoured vehicles, in order to rationalize operations and ensure that there is an ability to respond to all kinds of operations.

10:20 a.m.

LGen Peter J. Devlin

Thank you. That's a good question. You raise an important point.

You will note that, in every section of our army, adjustments have been made to attain the proper balance, with the view to securing a better response capability and greater operational readiness.

You used the example of the LdSH(RC) armoured regiments in Western Canada, with the Leopard 2 capability, as well as the RCD in Central Canada, and even the 12th Canadian Armoured Regiment in Valcartier, which are armoured reconnaissance regiments. Furthermore, the Gagetown squadron, composed equally of members of the RCD and the 12th Canadian Armoured Regiment, is tasked with maintaining the armoured capability and skill level in both regiments.

We have made those decisions.

to balance, to be respectful of budgets, and we have concentrated our tanks in western Canada where our best training areas are to exercise, at the collective level, with the armoured reconnaissance in central and eastern Canada.

The same applies to the counter-IED squadron which remains in Gagetown, along with three other combat engineering regiments.

We keep a level of awareness of counter-IED, but the skills, the route opening packages, exist only in Gagetown. Our challenge

tomorrow will be to retain the knowledge and skill level, while at the same time giving squadron troops an opportunity to train and keep their skills alive so that they can make use of them when they are on the battlefields.

10:20 a.m.

Sgt Maj Gino Moretti

By rebalancing our staff complement across Canada, we are able to offer young soldiers an exciting opportunity to move from one province to another or one brigade to another, in order to deepen their knowledge of their trade or their environment.

10:20 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Are you saying that dividing up operations among the regiments using the same combat arm has had a positive effect on the operational readiness of our regiments?

10:20 a.m.

Sgt Maj Gino Moretti

I would say it has, because soldiers are always looking for a challenge. For example, a young soldier who begins his reconnaissance training in Valcartier may ask to be transferred out west, to an armoured regiment in Edmonton, for example in order to improve his skill level, and the opposite is also true.

As the commander mentioned, the combat arms training centre of excellence in Gagetown gives young officers an opportunity to practice and have access to all the equipment they need for their development. They can share what they experienced in Afghanistan and during their training. It's important that they continue to be excited about the tasks they have to carry out.

10:20 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Will other plans relating to the division of tasks across the land force be developed in the coming months?

10:20 a.m.

LGen Peter J. Devlin

Yes, particularly as regards the close combat vehicles, or CCVs. Those vehicles are intended to be used with tanks. That will be implemented in western Canada.

It's a conscious decision that we have made in order to be effective and efficient in how we spend our precious resources. In the past we were a very symmetric army: 1 Brigade looked exactly like 5 Brigade, and 1st Battalion of the Van Doos

was exactly like the 1st Battalion of the RCR.

We are moving towards a bit more of an asymmetric approach to have flexibility for tomorrow, to be respectful of budgets, to be respectful of the gear that we are purchasing. It's a conscious decision.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

Mr. McKay.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I start, I think it's appropriate that we recognize Mr. Alexander for his accomplishment last night. He was named rookie of the Parliament.

10:25 a.m.

Voices

Hear, hear!

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Congratulations, Chris. I think a book, a baby, and a rookie of the year award is a pretty good year. Congratulations.

I wanted to talk to you, Lieutenant-General, about the issue that General Leslie raises about lapses. In his critique, he talks about the difficulties that the military in general, but the army specifically, has with respect to money that's allocated, budgeted, and then, for a whole variety of reasons having to do with, if you will, a supply or procurement chain, everybody has to sign off, etc., before something actually gets completed. Anecdotal conversations with senior people in the CF show that this lapsing business just drives them crazy, because they work hard to get those kinds of budgets.

I would be interested in your comments specifically on General Leslie's observations with respect to the number of people and entities that seem to have to sign off on procurement, but also this general observation that this lapsing is getting to be quite significant.

10:25 a.m.

LGen Peter J. Devlin

Thanks, sir.

That is a very real challenge for the Canadian Forces and certainly for the army. I think there are two parts to that challenge. One is that processes are very demanding.

I think the ongoing studies, including General Leslie's transformation report, have forced us, positively, to look at those processes—some of those departmental, some of them Government of Canada—so that we can streamline and make them much more efficient than they are now with the accepting risk that comes with that.

The second point would be that having an annual budget as opposed to a multi-year budget is also a bit of a challenge. There is movement towards providing departments like DND, which have huge purchases amounting to billions of dollars that are not spent in a normal fiscal year, with the flexibility to move the resources because of production lines that are slowed, production lines that have other challenges, and the money that you had anticipated spending in a fiscal year will not actually be spent until the following year.

So I think it's a combination of processes that need to be streamlined as well as an acceptance of the uniqueness...perhaps of several departments, certainly from a DND point of view--one that needs a bit more understanding of an annual budget being a multi-year budget.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

That's an interesting observation, because certainly 12 months is a short period of time when you're talking about some procurements, but then you run into difficulties with Treasury Board. You run into difficulties with Public Works.

What's the state of the conversation at this point in terms of protecting that money so that the money that's allocated gets spent within a reasonable period of time of the budgetary cycle? Having worked in the Department of Finance for a while, I appreciate that these lapses drive everybody crazy.