Evidence of meeting #66 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was record.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Tinsley  Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual
Eric Granger  Lawyer, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Anne London-Weinstein  Lawyer, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Michael R. Gibson  Deputy Judge Advocate General of Military Justice, Office of the Judge Advocate General, Department of National Defence

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Would he not have stronger grounds for saving those lives if the amendment contained in 18.5(3) is implemented?

4:05 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

We don't seem to be communicating here. I've said to you that I have never witnessed military police officers or police officers who intentionally, for no good reason, put themselves in harm's way.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Tinsley, have you ever operated as a serving military member in a combat zone?

4:05 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

If you consider Somalia a combat zone, I was deployed there.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Was it as a serving military officer on a combat mission?

4:05 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

Did you hear me say Somalia? I was deployed there. I was the lead counsel in the Somalia trials.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Were Canadian Forces engaged in combat at that time?

4:05 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

Well, it certainly was a danger zone.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Thank you, Mr. Tinsley.

You've noted in your own biography, which I assume is from your own hand because it was on a Liberal Party website, that most notably you were a senior prosecutor and appellate counsel in the high-profile prosecutions of Canadian Forces members stationed in Somalia accused of murder and torture.

Would you consider that to have been the highlight of your career so far?

4:10 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

I really don't understand the relevance of the question, but I would say to you that in fact, quite frankly, it was one of the low points in terms of the sadness of the events. None of us who lived through that, Mr. Alexander, were proud of it. We did what we had to do.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Do you consider it the most important work you've done so far?

February 13th, 2013 / 4:10 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

It was important in the sense that the public demanded an accounting and we provided that accounting.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Moving on to your role in the MPCC, whose mandate will be changed by these amendments, you initiated on February 9, 2007, an investigation and public hearings into serious allegations of the possible abuse of defenceless persons in CF custody. Two years later the finding was that there had been no abuse or mistreatment by Canadian Forces.

Is that correct?

4:10 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

Which Afghanistan investigation was it, the public interest one?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

It was the one in 2007 and 2008.

4:10 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

Was it by hearing or by investigation?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

I'm referring to your final report following a public interest investigation pursuant to section 250.38 of the National Defence Act, a complaint by Dr. Amir Attaran.

4:10 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

Okay. Yes, indeed, at the end of that investigation....

I did commence that investigation. It was thoroughly conducted. There was no finding of mistreatment of the three Afghan prisoners involved. In fact, I think it could be interpreted that I complimented some of the military personnel involved for the quality of treatment that was received. In fact, there was one remark with respect to the receipt of an MRI within less than an hour, as I recall, and it was suggested that residents of Canada, citizens of Canada, would appreciate that quickness of treatment in their own medical facilities.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

But you did review 5500 pages of evidence, witness interviews conducted by the CFNIS for 54 witnesses, and interview 34 people in your capacity as MPCC chair, through your investigators.

Was it worth the resources and time, given the results?

4:10 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

In terms of public confidence, Mr. Alexander, I don't think a finding of no fault is necessarily the appropriate measure. As a matter of fact, I certainly don't think it's the appropriate measure.

As you would see from my resume, I was the director of the Ontario Special Investigations Unit for almost five years, and there were numerous investigations. In terms of percentages, criminal charges were only laid against police officers in approximately 5% to 7%, as I recall, of the investigations in question, but if you're suggesting to me that the devotion of public resources isn't required in the maintaining of public confidence, I beg to differ.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Tinsley, over that nearly two-year period, there was a doubt about whether abuses had been committed by military police. Do you not agree with that because you hadn't submitted your findings?

4:10 p.m.

Former Chair, Military Police Complaints Commission, As an Individual

Peter Tinsley

Could you repeat your question in a less convoluted fashion?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chris Alexander Conservative Ajax—Pickering, ON

In 2007 and 2008, as you were compiling your findings, the fact of these hearings, their scale, and the level of media attention did create a doubt in the mind of the public about whether military police were treating detainees properly.

Are you aware of the fact that over the period when the people of Canada were awaiting the findings from your report, 62 Canadian soldiers were killed in Afghanistan?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I'll just say to Mr. Alexander that your time has expired, so, Mr. Tinsley, could you be brief in your comments?

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I object to that question. They were during the same period. It is not in order to suggest that this witness carrying out an investigation under law had anything whatsoever to do with 62 Canadians dying.

During that whole entire period there were also all kinds of allegations being made as well, and we were very happy to see that there was something going on, that there was a proper investigation actually taking place, because this committee couldn't do it.

This is just argumentative. It has nothing to do with this business.