Evidence of meeting #18 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Forster  Chief, Communications Security Establishment
Kevin Lindsey  Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Corporate Services, Department of National Defence
Patrick Finn  Chief of Staff, Materiel Group, Department of National Defence

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

All right, colleagues, the hour is here. We welcome Minister Rob Nicholson Minister of National Defence for our committee study today. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) the study is of the supplementary estimates (C) 2013-14 vote 5c under National Defence.

Appearing with the minister is Michael Martin, senior associate deputy minister; Major-General Michael Hood, director of staff of the strategic joint staff; Kevin Lindsey, assistant deputy minister, chief financial officer, finance and corporate services; and Rear-Admiral Patrick Finn, chief of staff materiel group.

Also at the witnesses table from the Communication Security Establishment Canada intelligence-gathering policies and practices we have the chief of CSEC, John Forster, whom we will be questioning more closely later in this committee meeting.

Welcome, Minister, if you would please deliver your—

April 3rd, 2014 / 11 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order. I just wanted to clarify that the estimates of course have been passed in the House, as we know, so we're really after the fact potentially asking questions about estimates. One of the principal reasons for this meeting was to have both the minister and Mr. Forster here so we could explore the question of the intelligence activities of government, particularly CSEC. I'm given to understand that we can at this point from the beginning either ask questions about the estimates or about CSEC and its activities in intelligence as well.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

The minister will be with us for 90 minutes. The chief will be with us through to the end of the committee meeting. Questions can be asked on either of those topics.

11 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

On either of those topics, but my understanding is the minister is leaving at 12:30.

That's fine, thanks.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

So with no further delay, Minister Nicholson, your opening remarks ten minutes, sir.

11 a.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of National Defence

Thank you very much.

I'm here today as was just pointed out to discuss supplementary estimates (C), but first I would like to address a story that ran last night on CTV regarding an invitation officials sent to the families of our fallen soldiers regarding the May 9 National Day of Honour.

The letter was premature, incorrect, and contained false information as event plans have not been finalized. Our government is proud to commemorate our military's mission in Afghanistan and to provide Canadians with an opportunity to reflect on the courage and sacrifice made by our soldiers.

Throughout this mission in Afghanistan our troops demonstrated commitment, dedication, and valour. Sadly, many Canadians made the ultimate sacrifice during this mission and we owe their families a debt of gratitude that can never be repaid. That is why it is the government's position that these expenses will be covered.

Now back to the subject of today's committee business.... As you pointed out, Mr. Chair, you've introduced those with me and I am pleased to be here this morning with them.

In a few moments I will also speak to you about the Communication Security Establishment, or CSE, and this is why, as was pointed out, I am joined by John Forster, the chief of CSE.

I understand that some members have a written version of the remarks from my last attempted appearance. I will however go through a number of my remarks to ensure that they are fully and appropriately on record.

Last time I spoke to you, I highlighted the good work of our men and women in uniform. I remain impressed each and every day with the incredible work of our military and the dedicated civilian team supporting them.

Let's take Afghanistan, for example. Just last month, I had the pleasure to welcome back the last rotation of soldiers deployed to Afghanistan. More than 40,000 Canadian Armed Forces members have served in Afghanistan, and many served more than once. In many ways, it was a war that defined our military in the last 12 years.

With our NATO allies and partners, we helped Afghans reclaim their country from terrorism and provide security for the Afghan population. Today, Afghanistan's security forces stand at approximately 345,000 personnel, and they will take full responsibility for Afghan security at the end of this year.

Mr. Chair, to undertake such a mission abroad for 12 years, our military needed proper equipment, and we gave it to them. Through the Canada First defence strategy, the government made unprecedented investments in military equipment and successfully delivered on many procurement projects.

But at the same time, it's important to challenge ourselves to ensure that our procurement processes are as efficient as they can be. This is why I was pleased to announce a few weeks ago, with my colleague Minister Finley, the new defence procurement strategy. The defence procurement strategy is giving the defence team new tools to improve the way they do procurement. It helps us streamline the procurement process and improve efficiency.

Mr. Chair, in our supplementary estimates, we are requesting $57.8 million in new appropriations to fund the Aurora modernization and structural life extension project, funds for the force mobility enhancement project, and some transfers to other government departments. Of these funds requested, we are offsetting $49.5 million with previously appropriated funding, and $8.1 million with transfers to other government departments. This reduces our total request for new funding to only $311,000.

Some of these funds will be used, again, as part of the Aurora modernization and life extension program, which will ensure that Canada maintains a world-class airborne surveillance capability while ensuring value for Canadians.

Some of the funds requested will be dedicated to the force mobility enhancement project. This project will provide the army with a flexible multi-purpose capability that will enable them to respond effectively to any mission, now or in the future.

In addition, these estimates will allow the department to work with other federal agencies to leverage resources and enhance the security of Canadians.

Mr. Chair, you will see that the estimates include smaller transfers of $5.2 million and $2.7 million to Shared Services Canada in order to reduce duplication and inefficiencies within government institutions and also conduct information technology activities at the Carling campus.

In addition, you will see a funding transfer of $141,900 to Transport Canada as part of a multi-year commitment to the Canadian safety and security program.

Also, these estimates list a transfer of $25,000 from National Defence to the National Research Council of Canada in order to conduct surface and groundwater monitoring at two National Research Council sites in Penticton, British Columbia.

While the job of the defence team is maintaining the security of this country, this government recognizes that a strong and resilient economy is an important aspect of that security.

That is why, last year, the defence team launched its own internal business process review, called defence renewal.

The defence renewal process is an opportunity to improve the way we manage our people, assets, and resources. While excellence in delivering operations at home and abroad will always be our priority, we must streamline the defence procurement process and leverage Canadian tax dollars that are provided for defence.

Mr. Chair, at the committee's request, I take this opportunity to also address any of the committee members' questions on the Communications Security Establishment. Let me underline the important role that CSE plays in protecting Canada and Canadians. CSE's mandate flows from the National Defence Act and requires CSE to provide the Government of Canada with three key services.

First, CSE collects foreign signals intelligence that supports government decision-making by providing information on the capabilities, activities, or intentions of foreign entities, such as states or terrorist groups.

Second, CSE has a cyber-protection mandate and provides advice, guidance, and services that help secure government systems and networks and the information they contain.

Finally, CSE provides technical and operational assistance upon request to federal law enforcement and security agencies under their respective mandates.

Under both its foreign intelligence and cyber-protection mandates, CSE does not target Canadians anywhere in the world or any person in Canada. Under the agency's assistance mandate, CSE acts under the legal authority of the requesting agency it is assisting and is subject to any limitations to that authority, such as applicable court warrants.

The foreign intelligence activities of CSE are critical to fulfilling the government's commitment to address emerging threats to our sovereignty and economy posed by terrorism and cyber-attacks while ensuring that Canadians' fundamental privacy rights are protected.

Over the years, CSE has provided intelligence to protect Canada and Canadians by supporting Canadian military operations and protecting our forces from threats; uncovering the efforts of foreign-based extremists to attract, radicalize, and train individuals to carry out attacks in Canada and abroad; identifying and helping to defend Canada against the actions of hostile foreign intelligence agencies; providing early warning to thwart foreign cyber-threats to the Government of Canada and to critical information infrastructures and networks; and furthering Canada's national interests in the world by providing context about global events and crises and informing the government's foreign policy.

In fulfilling this important role, CSE operates in full accordance with the law, including the National Defence Act, the Criminal Code, and the Privacy Act. CSE is also subject to legislative measures in place to protect the privacy of Canadians and persons in Canada. Since 1996, a fully independent CSE commissioner—a series of esteemed retired or supernumerary judges—has regularly reviewed CSE activities for compliance with the law. The commissioner and his full-time staff and expert consultants have full access to all CSE personnel, systems, and documents. In more than 17 years, the commissioner has never found CSE to have acted unlawfully. In fact, he has specifically noted CSE's culture of lawful compliance and genuine concern for protecting the privacy of Canadians.

Were the commissioner ever to conclude that the agency is acting outside the law, he would be required to report this immediately to the Attorney General and to me as the minister responsible for CSE. Both the chief of CSE and I take the findings of the commissioner in his reviews very seriously. CSE has implemented past recommendations of the commissioner related to privacy, and the agency is in the process of implementing those from the more recent reviews.

Canadians can continue to count on the efforts of CSE and the government to safeguard the security of Canada from foreign threats while at the same time acting in full accordance with the law and protecting the privacy of Canadians.

Mr. Chair, thank you once again for inviting me. I welcome any questions.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll proceed now to the opening round of questions, seven-minute segments.

Mr. Chisu, please.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister and all who are appearing before the committee.

I have a question to you, Minister. I served in Afghanistan. National Defence and the minister, after ten years of darkness, provided us with equipment and with great care in the 12 years of operation in Afghanistan, so I am thanking you all—including the CSE, that provided us with the fusion centre and provided us with great services in fulfilling our mission abroad.

Minister, the Department of National Defence is seeking approximately $35 million to modernize the Aurora aircraft. Can you explain to us the importance of the Aurora and how this investment is going to affect the capability of our air force?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

The Auroras have played a key role in our capability, and certainly Libya was one of the examples of that. These are important surveillance aircraft. I was very pleased to be in Halifax recently.... As you know, Mr. Chair, the estimates have been passed, and so we've proceeded on that basis. A couple of weeks ago, I was in Halifax to make the announcement that we are continuing with the modernization of these important aircraft and again bringing them up to the greatest possible capability and modernizing them.

I've received very good reports on the role they have played. I mentioned Libya as an example of it, but their importance for strategic surveillance is without question. Again, I was very proud to make that announcement.

The feedback I have received from the armed forces is that these are an important component of our capability. As you pointed out with respect to Afghanistan, our capability is extremely important to making sure that we are able to get the job done that we are called upon to do. That is a commitment, of course, of this government, but one component of it is this modernization program.

Again, I was very pleased and honoured to be able to make that announcement a couple of weeks ago.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you very much.

Another question that I have for you, Minister, is that in terms of the overall budget of the Department of National Defence the amount requested under supplementary estimates (C) is quite small. Can you please outline the role of the Canada First defence strategy in making budgetary decisions big and small at the Department of National Defence?

I am especially pleased to see that the department is paying attention to the force mobility enhancements project, which is close to my heart as a former combat and construction engineer. That we finally have armoured engineering vehicles and after many years have this capability warms my heart. Can you elaborate on this?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

The amount of investment that the government has made in National Defence is unprecedented. Supplementary estimates (C) are not the main repository for the budget of National Defence. As you go through the supplementary estimates process, as you may know and as the chairman would be very aware, there are modifications that take place. So again, we have made unprecedented investment, and rightly so.

As you know, we have just concluded... and I had the opportunity to welcome back the last of our soldiers from Afghanistan. This was a huge operation that we undertook as a nation.

You pointed out quite correctly the Canada First defence strategy. This is something we will be renewing. This has been a part of our outreach and the message we are communicating to the world: that we have a responsibility with respect to Canada's north, the defence of Canada, the defence of North America, and indeed to continuing cooperation with our allies, whether it be through NATO or the outreach that we have made to others. It's a part of who we are, and this is what we are going to continue to do. It's a major operation, and it's an important one. Again, the Canada First defence strategy captures that outlook on behalf of the government.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you, Minister.

Do I have more time?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

You have 90 seconds, Mr. Chisu.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Okay. I have a short question about CSE operations.

Of course we Canadians are rightly concerned about the protection of our privacy, but also we are concerned about the protection of our country. I understand that you are doing an excellent job in protecting against threats to Canada, and there are many new threats following the exercise on the world scene of Russia, playing quite aggressively lately.

Can you elaborate on what the CSE is doing for us and what can be expected in the future?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you for those comments that I'm doing an excellent job in this area here. I hope that is being recorded, Mr. Chair.

That being said, you quite correctly point out the role of CSE, and I'm sure there will be more discussions about their role in helping to protect us against cyber-attackers and terrorists. As you quite correctly point out, this is an ongoing threat. Our job and our responsibility is to do what we can within the parameters as set out in the enabling legislation: to assist Canada, to protect Canada, against those kinds of attacks.

I have been very careful in my discussions and my analysis of what's taking place that there are constraints within the laws of this country, and CSE is obligated to operate within those instructions, but again, I can't overemphasize the importance this organization plays in helping to protect Canada and Canadians.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Peter Kent

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Harris, you have seven minutes, please.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for joining us along with Mr. Forster and the other representatives of the Department of National Defence.

I have one question about the estimates even though they have already been passed. That's to do with the Aurora project.

Do I understand correctly of the 18 Auroras that were originally purchased, 10 have so far been modernized, there are another four to go, and they will be able to operate the 14 aircraft into 2030 with the new modernization?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Yes, I think that's a very reasonable analysis. You're absolutely correct. The announcement I made was about modernizing those aircraft. Again, these are going to continue to be a vital component of what we do.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

These are used mainly for coastal maritime surveillance.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Certainly. I would say, yes.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

If they were used, they would be added to great effect.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Exactly.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

So they are very useful aircraft.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

When you get into these roles, you get analysis of different aspects of our equipment, and what we are doing. I can say I have had nothing except positive feedback with respect to these aircraft and their value to our armed forces.

So, again, as I pointed out to my colleagues in my opening remarks, I'm very pleased to be able to make that announcement that we're going to continue this modernization process.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

With respect to the operations of the security establishment, let me ask first of all—because I think there are a lot of concerns and questions about what CSEC actually does, much of which is done through authorizations by the Minister of National Defence, whether you have personally been involved in them to date or not, I don't know, but we do know there were two authorizations with respect to what's known as metadata, one in 2005 and one in 2011.

Mr. Forster, you told the Senate committee recently when questioned about the activities involving data collected at a Canadian airport, this was “part of our normal global collection”. In other words, the collection of the data wasn't specifically targeted at that airport.

Is that correct?