National Defence Committee on April 3rd, 2014

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well again, the organization has to be in compliance with a whole host of Canadian pieces of legislation, including a constitutional document, the charter. Again, that is exactly what is reviewed on a regular basis by the CSEC commissioner and those working with him. It's not a question of my investigating this organization, it's a question of having an independent individual having a look at it. They can give me all the assurances of what they are doing but when I can have a look and see somebody we respect and we trust having a look at this, it does give me the confidence that they are in compliance with all Canadian laws.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We understand that DND and the Canadian Armed Forces will be tenants in Nortel's former Carling Avenue campus.

Would you please tell us how the consolidation of these different departments, organizations in the national capital region will be of benefit to our country?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think the benefit will be that, having had National Defence in several dozen different locations all over this community and this area, consolidating and reducing the number of footprints at National Defence will be a huge benefit. In terms of administrative costs—I was quite impressed when I saw this—the move will have net savings to the Government of Canada of more than $750 million in addition to $160 million in cost avoidance over 25 years.

Again, if you disperse your activities over several dozen different facilities and are paying for that in administrative costs, etc., and are now consolidating it so that not all of National Defence will be in the one location but much of it will be, there are savings to Canada—and a much more efficient way to do business, frankly. You can imagine that having operations in all different types of locations can in and of itself be inefficient. That being said, this is a great improvement and one that I'm pleased to see.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

So will the new money that's being transferred in these estimates to Shared Services Canada to fund this Carling Campus project actually generate savings?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

In the long term we have to take steps to make the move from the 40 different locations that National Defence is in now, and there are some preliminary steps that have to be taken working with other government agencies, but I'm satisfied that in the long term this will result in considerable savings for the taxpayers of this country and I believe it will contribute to better operations within DND.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

In terms of allocations towards exercises—as you know, the military has to be at the ready at all times—can you tell us about what is in the estimates and how it pertains to keeping our forces ready?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I can tell you how pleased I was to participate in the Army Run a few months ago, and certainly this has been a part of the tradition within the Canadian Armed Forces.... I've told members of the air force that I remember that at my school we had the RCAF 5BX plan. This was an exercise program, and the chairman might remember it as well. This was a great program, and this is what we were told. It's good that the members of our armed forces want to maintain fitness levels and that they were extending that and encouraging us as young children to get involved with it.

We'll get whatever information we can to you on the exact breakdown of this, but I've been very pleased to see over the years, and the Army Run is just a good example, the bringing of people together and demonstrating that commitment to a level of fitness.

I'll see what we can do about coming up with more details for you.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Ms. Gallant.

We have time. We will hit your departure time, sir, with two more five-minute rounds.

Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are provisions in the act for ministerial authorizations, as we discussed, under section 273.65, some of them for intercepting “private communications in relation to an activity... or activities” that are identified in the order, including, within Canada, with respect to protecting computer systems and networks.

Could you give us the history of the use of these authorizations? How many of these have there been, say, in the last five years?

[John Forster]

I wouldn't have the number with me. Last year there were, I believe, four or five authorizations. They are related to the class of activities that risk incidental interception, as when you're targeting a foreign target who may be in conversation with somebody in Canada. That's when you need an authorization, and it has to meet a number of criteria in the act that are spelled out there, such as that it has to be a foreign target and that you couldn't reasonably obtain the information in another way, and it has to have foreign intelligence value. The minister has to be satisfied that those conditions are met, and then the commissioner reviews those authorizations and assesses whether our activities have complied with them.

He also reviews, as you'll note in his report last year, all of the private communications—so that involves a Canadian on one end—to make sure they were used in compliance with those conditions.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

When you say it has to be authorized by the minister and is reviewed by the commissioner, it's not reviewed by the commissioner before the authorization is acted upon.

[John Forster]

No, he reviews—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

This is part of his activity after the fact.

[John Forster]

Yes, sir. He reviews—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Then the four to five last year, would that be typical? Would that be four or five a year or would there be...I'm asking about the last five years, so are we talking about that being typical?

[John Forster]

No, I think we've reduced and consolidated them, but to be honest, I don't have the numbers with me over the last five years.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Were there fewer last year than in the previous four years?

[John Forster]

Yes, sir, and as I said, any private communications that were retained and used by us—the number is quite small—the commissioner reviewed each and every one of those to make sure they were in compliance with our act and with the authorization by the minister.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

There's a specific authorization as well, under subsection (3), of that type of authorization to intercept private communications with respect to protecting the computer systems or networks of the Government of Canada from “mischief, unauthorized use or interference”.

Are there authorizations in place under that section as well?

[John Forster]

There would be an authorization for cyber-defence activity that risks the interception of a private communication.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

It doesn't say “risk” here. It says, “authorize the Communications Security Establishment in writing to intercept private communications in relation to an activity or class of activities specified in the authorization”, and that includes Canadians.

[John Forster]

If we were getting an email into the federal department that contained malware or was spear-phishing in the hope that somebody would click on it, open, download malware to infect government computers, that authorization allows us to intercept that but only for cyber-defence purposes and protecting the government networks.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Would that be used then to follow up and try to prosecute somebody who was trying to do damage to Canadian computer systems? Is that part of the role?