National Defence Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2018

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Should this come before the International Criminal Court, then? I know that all those nations have something like our own National Defence Act, where we have our own court martial system, but when it's our own soldiers and our own troops doing this, should some of these challenges be brought before the ICC?

[Bruce Jones]

I don't think they rise to the level of war crimes by the ICC definition. More to the point, they would have to go through national authorities first. If, then, it were instance of a Canadian soldier engaged in sexual exploitation or abuse, it would be up to the Canadian authorities to investigate and provide accountability for that.

The point I was trying to make is that a number of countries have not taken the necessary steps to provide that accountability. The UN can't force them to do it. It has gotten more selective about which countries it's willing to allow to contribute, if they aren't taking those steps. Canada could play a leadership role in encouraging other substantial contributors to make sure they have the national accountability mechanisms to deal with those instances.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Ms. Woroniuk, go ahead.

[Beth Woroniuk]

Just following up on this, the question of jurisdiction has plagued peace support operations on this, given that the discipline or punishment of members is the responsibility of the troop-contributing country. That's why one of the suggestions coming from outside the UN is to establish an arm's-length body that would investigate this. We know it's often very difficult for an institution to police and investigate itself.

If we had a referral mechanism that was outside of the UN and that could look at this and come up with recommendations, it would still not totally deal with the issue of holding individual perpetrators responsible, but it might help to establish new norms and new ways of working and bringing light to some of these concerns.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

What about sanctions against nations that do not provide any accountability for the activities and bad behaviour of the troops? For that criminality in particular, if they're not going to prosecute and court-martial these individuals, then—fairly—should we not sanction them and maybe not allow them to participate in UN peacekeeping missions?

[Beth Woroniuk]

As our fellow witnesses said, there are now issues being raised in terms of asking for troops from various countries. I'm not sure whether specific sanctions would work, because I think it's also an issue related to power structure and relations with local communities.

Also, when we have sexual exploitation and abuse, that's only a symptom of other, broader issues that have to be addressed in terms of how peace support operations, civilian and military, relate to local populations. It's a signal, then, that something else is wrong, which requires further attention and the addressing of these issues.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Ms. White, does the UNA believe there should be, at the very least, naming and shaming of those nations that aren't following the code of conduct?

[Kathryn White]

Again, your question is very important, and I wish there were a simple answer to it.

You will have seen that the largest troop-contributing nations tend to be militaries that don't have the same disciplined command and control structure. They may not be as well equipped even to go in the field. They are, in some ways, probably more at risk and coming from societies that might be strongly patriarchal. Add to that a conflict situation where women are vulnerable and may be lacking food and shelter. It takes a certain moral fortitude, both in command and control. However, imagine those young people we are putting, on both of sides of this line, into mortal danger, frankly.

All that is to say that it's a vexing issue. As my colleague Bruce said, it's not appropriate for the ICC. However, as he suggested, we can provide that training and that discipline to other countries to make sure these changes happen. They will happen over time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

MP Spengemann, go ahead.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

I want to use my time to ask you for some very practical political advice. One of the most vulnerable populations in recent conflicts has been the LGBTI community. There have been horrific atrocities, often systematic, if you look at Iraq, Syria, Libya and a lot of countries in that region.

On October 14, just a couple of weeks before this committee goes to New York, the House of Commons is sending a delegation to the Inter-Parliamentary Union, which is the forum of the world's parliaments. It's actually older than the UN. It has about 176 member countries, and a lot of discussions take place on peace and security.

The question of LGBTI rights doesn't even get onto the agenda. There is a known group of countries that will mobilize to vote this down democratically so that there isn't even room to discuss.

From your insights, your contacts and your experience, what pathways should we follow or explore to make sure that, in conflicts, this particular segment of civilian populations is better protected than it has been in the past?

[Beth Woroniuk]

It's something very important. Again, one way is supporting and recognizing local resistance, local organizations and groups that are mobilized around these issues. These are the activists who know their situation the best. These are the activists who stay in times of conflict. They're not international NGOs that leave, yet we have very few mechanisms in our aid program or our peace support operations to support these groups, to strengthen them and to fund their priorities, their agendas and their issues.

Related to that, another important issue is how Canada supports human rights defenders. We have guidelines at Global Affairs on human rights defenders and Canadian support, and they are currently undergoing a process of revision.

There have been a number of organizations here in Canada pushing to ensure that these new guidelines reflect the specific needs of women human rights defenders and LGBTI rights defenders. One of the really important differences is that many male human rights defenders face repression from the state or from state actors, but a lot of women human rights defenders and people of different sexual orientations face challenges from family members, because they're violating gender norms in the community. I think we have to recognize that and make sure our guidelines support these activists on the ground.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Operationally, are peacekeepers equipped to identify and protect those populations? Have they been in recent cases that you're aware of?

[Beth Woroniuk]

My understanding is that this is very new, in terms of looking at protecting LGBTQI populations, and this is an area that we do need to give more attention to. It involves how you relate to local populations in general, but looking specifically at groups that have particular needs is an important priority going forward.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Sexual orientation is not one-for-one mapped onto gender. The gender advisers you're proposing, the 10 gender advisers you spoke of in the beginning, would they be able to take on that role to strengthen peacekeeping mechanisms and the responsibility to protect LGBTI populations?

[Kathryn White]

Since I raised that issue, I will concur that it is absolutely possible. Again, a part of what Canada can do—and even you can do it through your own deployments—is bring this to the attention.... Part of this is awareness-building. You said that there are many countries where these issues are still very much verboten, not acknowledged and so on. Much as gender was 30 years ago, so it is with LGBTQI.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you for that.

I have 30 seconds left. Just very quickly, would the 10 gender advisers you're proposing be funded by Canada or be Canadians?

[Kathryn White]

That's what I'm proposing, that they be funded by Canada.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

They could be other nationalities.

Okay, Mr. Chair, thank you. I think I'm a bit under, but those are my questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

MP Gallant, the floor is yours.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Jones, you've written that cyber-weapons and artificial intelligence are the most prominent frontier threats. Could you please elaborate for the committee on the current and future threats AI poses to international security?

[Bruce Jones]

Is that in the context of peacekeeping, or more generally?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

It's generally, on the whole, not just peacekeeping.

[Bruce Jones]

Let's look at it on two levels. I think we're already at the beginning of a phase of strategic competition among the United States, China, Russia and others for the use of AI and cyber-weapons and the integration of that into military affairs and strategic economic competition. That's one geopolitical level at which this is going to evolve very rapidly.

I think the second layer, which is very concerning as well, is the ability of non-state groups to effectively use off-the-shelf downloadable apps for AI and other software to significantly increase their capability to use things like remote drones, remote drone swarming, social media manipulation, etc., both for direct attacks on governments or peacekeepers in a conflict setting and also for terrorist actions outside of those settings.

Those are two very different problems, but I think we're going to see most forms of battlefields, so to speak, whether geopolitical or operational, become increasingly infused with the use of both cyber and AI weapons.

ISIS is way ahead of the curve from other non-state groups in its use of artificial intelligence to drive its recruiting platforms overseas. Other groups will catch on.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

With ISIS and its use of artificial intelligence, what applications are they using, other than facial recognition, for example?

[Bruce Jones]

A lot of the recruitment tools they have use AI-enabled software that's much more sophisticated at trolling through social media and identifying people who might be suitable for approaches or recruitment or mobilization. It's similar to the kinds of things the Russians have done in terms of disinformation.

It's really in the social media space and communications space that they've used those tools so far. I think we're going to see them—not necessarily ISIS per se, but non-state groups—use those tools in terms of improving their military capacity, using drones and other instruments of warfare.