Evidence of meeting #113 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victims.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Geneviève Bernatchez  Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Stephen Strickey  Colonel, Deputy Judge Advocate General, Military Justice, Department of National Defence
Richard Martel  Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC
Julie Dzerowicz  Davenport, Lib.
Geneviève Lortie  Director of Law, Military Justice, Policy, Department of National Defence

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

That is your choice.

I'm not stopping the clock, and I'd ask you for the second time to stay on track to what is in the order of reference, please, Mr. Bezan.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Okay. What time am I at?

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

You have about three and a half minutes.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

In 2007, two petty officers working at DND in Ottawa, Sylvia Reid and Janet Sinclair, who held top secret security clearance, were charged with sabotaging a classified military database, charged with conspiracy and mischief. This happened while we were at war with Afghanistan. These were highly unusual charges and very serious charges. These two individuals were accommodated. They were not sent home. They were reassigned to other tasks that did not involve classified materials pending the allegation being adjudicated in court.

Why is their treatment different under military law than what's currently happening in civil court with Vice-Admiral Norman?

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

What's very important here is that with Bill C-77, we're trying to make sure that we create greater efficiencies with the military justice system so that we can deliver greater justice for the victims, and that they're even better supported. We're trying to make sure that cases actually go through in a much more efficient manner, and that it's in line with the direction of our wider legislation. It's extremely important for us.

I'll just remind all parliamentarians that this is very important legislation that we need to get through. We should take this very seriously by making sure we have the right input from all of you so we can look at any improvements that need to be made.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

For a Canadian Armed Forces member to be found guilty under military law, there first has to be an investigation by a member of the military unit, which the Auditor General said is taking far too long. There needs to be an investigator from the Canadian Forces military police group or the national investigative service. Was there an investigation performed like that for Vice-Admiral Norman's case at all?

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

I can't discuss this, obviously, because this is before the courts. On any type of case within the military, our military police and national investigative service do phenomenal work on behalf of the Canadian Armed Forces.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Does Bill C-77 change the way an investigation happens under military law for commanding officers?

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

As you should be well aware, the changes to the system that we're providing take the summary trial system and put the serious offences into the court martial, and change where commanding officers will be dealing with a summary hearing process to deal with minor infractions, which will focus on unit cohesion and discipline.

JAG, do you have anything to add to that?

11:50 a.m.

Cmdre Geneviève Bernatchez

No, I don't. Thank you.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Allow me to quote section 71 of the Military Rules of Evidence, specifically the section “Government Privilege on Disclosure”. It says, “Except as provided in this Division or in an Act of the Parliament of Canada, there is no official or governmental privilege to withhold relevant evidence from a court martial.”

If it's good that evidence should be turned over for a court martial, shouldn't Vice-Admiral Norman, who was—

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I have a point of order.

Mr. Chair, the Norman case is being tried before a civil court. We're here to discuss Bill C-77, which has to do with the military justice system. I would argue this is completely irrelevant.

October 23rd, 2018 / 11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

To that point of order—

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

That's sustained. Mr. Bezan has been cautioned twice on this very same issue. He has seven seconds left, and I'm going to be moving over to Mr. Gerretsen.

You have a point of order—

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

That point of order should not take from his time.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

It's a point of order.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Mr. Gerretsen said that because this is not a court martial.... In any case, what I would like to know is with Bill C-77, to that point of order, does—

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

It's been sustained. We're moving forward. Do you have a new point of order?

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

I'm speaking to his point of order. He said this is different from a court martial. Why would Vice-Admiral Norman not be going through a court martial, which is supposedly more serious, and that is—

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Again, there's absolutely no relevance there, Mr. Chair.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

You have seven seconds left, Mr. Bezan. Would you like to take your seven seconds?

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Yes, I would. I would like to move that considering Bill C-77 clarifies that Canadian Armed Forces members are subject to the code of service discipline even while off duty, and considering that Vice-Admiral Norman is a serving member who is believed to have committed a service offence, that the committee call on the government to immediately table all documents relevant to Vice-Admiral Norman's court proceedings, including all relevant cabinet documents, and that the government waive cabinet confidence in order to provide Vice-Admiral Norman with the full disclosure he is seeking to conduct his defence.

That is notice of motion.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Go ahead, Mr. Gerretsen.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

If Mr. Bezan is moving that motion, I think it's ironic that at the beginning of this meeting he started off by chastising the Liberal Party for having a motion on the floor of the House to interrupt the time that the minister had with us. Therefore, I would move that we adjourn debate on his motion.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Just to take note, I didn't—