National Defence Committee on Dec. 4th, 2018

[Andriy Shevchenko]

Not yet. We are extremely thankful to the Canadian Parliament for adopting the Magnitsky act, and we think that it is high time to put more pressure on Russia using the Magnitsky act. There are some absolutely demonstrated bizarre cases of violations of human rights, and I think there are plenty of reasons to make use of this law.

With regard to other punishing sanctions, I believe the Atlantic Council also recommended looking into sanctions against major Russian banks. Also, I would like to see how can we limit Russian commercial illegal activities in the Black Sea region.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Cyber-attacks have been—

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to have to leave it there. Unfortunately, we're out of time. However, we should have time to circle back after.

I'm going to give the floor to MP Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the ambassadors for being present with us today.

Certainly, my party shares your concern about the recent increase in tensions in the region.

I know that Ambassador Shevchenko mentioned the government and the official opposition statements. The NDP also issued a statement supporting the three demands that you talked about at the beginning, in terms of getting prisoners back, releasing the vessels and then restoring free passage of the strait. We do certainly support you in that.

One of my concerns, always, is that incidents like this have to be responded to—and responded to strongly—but they can't let us get knocked off our longer-term success in building relationships with all three of your countries in terms of the integration.

Some of the things that the NDP previously called for between Canada and Ukraine were visa-free entry—also for Ukrainians to Canada—and the restoration of the youth mobility agreement. I am wondering whether there has been any progress on either of those. I think those are very important in building our longer-term relationship and in helping to strengthen Ukraine's democratic values and economy.

[Andriy Shevchenko]

First of all, I would like to thank the NDP for its continuous support towards Ukraine.

With regard to the youth mobility agreement, I can report that, yes, we do have progress on that. We have received Canadian proposals on this major and very important agreement, and right now we are in the process of consideration. I believe that we are in a good position to advance on youth mobility. It's something that both countries will greatly benefit from.

Unfortunately, I don't see much progress on the visa-free regime. I can also say that in 2018 we again see an increase in the number of refusals for visas for Ukrainian citizens. As of this moment, this number is as high as 26%.

I think there is no good reason to justify such a high number of visa refusals for Ukrainian citizens. I think the goal for both countries is very clear. We need to make sure that there is a free opportunity for people to travel between the countries.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

When Ukraine already has visa-free access to the EU and when we already have a free trade agreement between Canada and the Ukraine, it's hard for me to understand why we would not proceed to visa-free access. I certainly haven't heard explanations from the government that would justify the high rate of visa refusals. You certainly still have our support on that.

The second thing that you mentioned was that Operation Unifier is coming up for renewal. I was one of the members of the committee who was privileged to go to Ukraine and see the project in action. Whether we have the details worked out and whether we're going to expand that agreement, would an early statement about supporting the renewal of that mission at this time from Canada be of use, given the crisis in the region?

[Andriy Shevchenko]

Absolutely. The very fact of the renewal of Operation Unifier will be a strong message of support towards Ukraine. I can also share with you that I think, this time, we are in very good communication with the Canadian government and with Canadian Armed Forces on how we can make better use of Operation Unifier.

This last year, we have seen the extension of the geography of the operation. Also, I hear that a lot of things have changed in terms of the scale and the depth of co-operation between Ukraine and Canada. I hope we'll see more of that after March 2019.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Certainly I know my party is very much in favour of such an early declaration that there will be a renewal of that agreement. I don't think it's necessary for us to work out all the details at this point, but I believe it would also send that strong signal.

I have probably very little time, but I'm going to turn to the other two ambassadors today.

I'd like you to comment. I'm not questioning, at all, your concerns about Russian actions at Kerch, but I think for Canadians it's somewhat sometimes hard to understand that interconnectedness. I'd like to give both of you a chance to talk a bit more about what that action, in denying international passage, might mean for both of your countries.

Maybe we'll start with Moldova and then Georgia.

[Ala Beleavschi]

Thank you so much.

The fact that Moldova has Russian troops stationed to the western border of Ukraine means that it is potentially another front, which could be opened at any time by Russia.

The Transnistria region is situated actually 100 kilometres from Odessa. Clearly Russia is focusing on Odessa as well, because this is a very important port. The proximity of Transnistria to these parts, which is the Black Sea port, indeed poses serious threats to the security of Ukraine and the security of the entire region. That is why I believe that any developments in Ukraine today directly affect the security of Moldova and the security of the region.

[Konstantine Kavtaradze]

Thank you very much.

If you'll allow me, I'll just very briefly elaborate on two previous questions because they are interrelated with the question that you gave us.

First of all, I'd like to notify the distinguished members of the committee of, in a sense, a trilateral co-operation between Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia in establishing long-term consultative structures alongside the trilateral parliamentary assembly you mentioned here. It would be tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, I'm not sure, but within the OSCE meeting, there will be a meeting, I suppose, between Canada and the organization called GUAM. The abbreviation is for Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Moldova. This is an organization that was established back in the 1990s in order to have additional tools for consultations and for co-operation, and we continue with it. The fact that GUAM establishes direct contact with Canada is a very good message of Canadian support to Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia.

The second issue is concerning the Russians' actions in Georgia, including the hybrid war and borderization. The issues are there, and we would be happy to provide the information that we provided to the government already.

The Magnitsky act was mentioned, and the Otkhozoria-Tatunashvili list is kind of the Magnitsky act of Georgia.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Could you wind up in 30 seconds, please, Ambassador?

[Konstantine Kavtaradze]

Actually, the issue is that we really need Canada's involvement, not just in the sense of imposing sanctions but also in sharing the experience of how the Magnitsky act is implemented by Canada in connection to many countries, including Russia.

The three of us were talking about the interconnection of our fates, histories and challenges. First, Russia attacked, using the Black Sea fleet to attack Georgia in 2008. Actually, Russia used these same ships—the naval ships that they are using in Kerch—against Georgia in 2008.

Secondly, we were talking about a wider region. Maybe Moldova is not a little state of the Black Sea, but it is a Black Sea region state. We were happy to learn that in the Brussels summit NATO introduced Black Sea security discussions. It's very important, because Georgia is a very integral part of these discussions. This shows, in the participation of our three countries in the discussions on the Black Sea, that what happens in Ukraine today is very much a factor in what will happen in Georgia and Moldova tomorrow, just as what happened in 2008 in Georgia very much affected what is happening in Ukraine today.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

I'm going to give the floor to you, MP Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My questions will primarily be for the Ambassador of Ukraine.

First, Your Excellency, I want to ask you about the video you showed the committee, which demonstrated the Russian aggression. Can you comment as to where the video is sourced from? Obviously it was from a Russian ship. Was it shared publicly? Did Russia share that as propaganda? Did you obtain it by some other way? Is it publicly available? I'm just curious about how the video got out there.

[Andriy Shevchenko]

It was widely spread by international and Russian media.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Yes, so it was used as a propaganda tool within Russia.

[Andriy Shevchenko]

That's what I believe.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

This committee made a recommendation following the study that we did on Ukraine. Recommendation 7 stated:

That the Government of Canada provide lethal weapons to Ukraine to protect its sovereignty from Russian aggression, provided that Ukraine demonstrate it is actively working to eliminate corruption at all levels of government.

One of the things that our committee discovered when we travelled to Ukraine a little over a year ago was that there were still some elements of corruption within the government structure that needed to be dealt with to move towards a fully functioning government that uses the democratic principles as values to be established.

I'm wondering if you can comment on the work that Ukraine has been able to do to that end.

[Andriy Shevchenko]

It's an impressive amount of work, and I'm happy to say that you—Canada—helped us to do this. As many of you know, there is a major Canadian investment in the defensive work in Ukraine. You help us through your advice and through your people on the ground who help us to change our military.

When we talk about the reform of the Ukrainian armed forces, there are several clear targets for that, clear goals. The first is very practical: to be able to defend our land. The second is to make sure that we can work together with our allies from NATO and, in the future, inside of NATO. The third is to fight corruption—which Ukraine used to be notorious for—and I believe we are quite successful in that.

Also, you mentioned the recommendations of the committee. I again would like to thank the committee members for the very thoughtful and visionary recommendations that you provided in terms of Ukraine and in terms of Canadian actions in the region.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

The reason why I read out recommendation 7, Your Excellency, was that given the fact that the committee made this recommendation with that caveat attached to it, it would definitely be easier to push that recommendation if we were able to demonstrate action with respect to ridding government of some of those government structures that used to be extremely notorious for being corrupt.

I do agree with you. Even what we heard when we were there was that a lot of that is being dealt with. I was looking for more specific examples as to how that corruption is being dealt with and perhaps what has happened in the last year and a half since we were there.

[Andriy Shevchenko]

In general, there are three major sources of corruption, and they are universal. The first is stealing directly from the budget. The second is public procurement, and the third is state-run enterprises.

I think Ukraine has shown tremendous progress in the first two. We don't see direct stealing from the budget, as was the norm during the Yanukovych years. In terms of public procurement, I think Ukraine has demonstrated tremendous progress with the introduction of our wonderful electronic system, which is called ProZorro. It's an award-winning, world-class electronic system. I think our state-run enterprises remain a major challenge, yet even in that field, we see tremendous progress.

It's a big challenge for the country, and the road that we have travelled is very impressive. Again, we are thankful to Canada for supporting us in that.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, I'll yield the rest of my time to the member from Etobicoke Centre.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Gerretsen.

I have two quick questions, since time is limited.

Both Russia and Ukraine are parties to the Geneva conventions, and more specifically, to the fourth convention. Based on the wording in the fourth convention, Russia has committed what are defined as grave breaches, in the incident in the Kerch Strait, namely—and I take this out of the wording of the convention—“the taking of hostages”. That's the first point.

The second point is about unlawful deportation, transfer or confinement. Signatory nations of the Geneva conventions are obligated—it's not optional—to search for persons having ordered these hostages to be brought to trial, regardless of nationality and the location where the crimes took place.

First, has Ukraine initiated any actions under the Geneva conventions towards those who have ordered this illegal seizure of Ukrainian soldiers, and also for the fact that they're not being treated as POWs?

The second question is in regard to the actual incident, the ramming, firing upon and seizure of ships and sailors. Importantly—and perhaps it wasn't clear in the presentation—this occurred in the international waters of the Black Sea, outside of the Kerch Strait. This undermines our international rule of law system safeguarding maritime law and shipping. It seems to be working in conjunction with what I call the de facto embargo of the ports of Mariupol and Berdyansk. As you noted, this is economically destabilizing a region that's very vulnerable to this sort of destabilization, and militarily has potential value as a land bridge to the Crimean peninsula.

The west has regularly issued strong statements directed at the Kremlin. I don't think Mr. Putin loses any sleep over strong statements, diplomatic statements. The port of Rostov-on-Don and the sister port Novorossiysk—which is actually the mother port, as you could call it—are 300 kilometres apart, the distance from Toronto to Kingston. Do you think sectoral sanctions that target the corporate entities of those two ports as well as the oligarch owners would have an impact on Mr. Putin's actions in the region?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Ambassador, I'm going to have to hold it there. Unfortunately, we're out of time, but we will have time at the end, and potentially we can circle back on an answer to that question.

I'm going to have to yield the floor to MP Dzerowicz, for five minutes, please.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Davenport, Lib.]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and thanks to everyone for their excellent presentations.

I might actually have time at the end of my presentation to pass it over to Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Most of my questions are also directed to Ambassador Shevchenko. One piece of the story that I'm missing, and I'm sure it's there somewhere, is the Ukrainian tugboats. What were they doing? Is it just part of their normal routine, that's what they usually do, and then, all of a sudden, out of the blue, the Russian ships came out and just attacked them? Could you explain to me what the Russian tugboats were doing there?