National Defence Committee on April 4th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Good afternoon to everyone and welcome to the Standing Committee on National Defence. We are continuing our discussion on the study of diversity within the Canadian Armed Forces.

I would like to welcome Brigadier Nicholas Orr, United Kingdom defence and military adviser and head of the British defence liaison staff, to committee today.

Sir, thank you for coming and I'm going to yield the floor to you for your opening remarks.

[Brigadier Nicholas Orr, United Kingdom Defence and Military Adviser and Head of the British Defence Liaison Staff, British High Commission]

Chair, thank you very much and good afternoon to everybody. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you this afternoon and discuss the really important issue of diversity in the armed forces. From a U.K. perspective we very much refer to it as diversity and inclusion, but I will talk about that in slightly more detail in a second.

First, I'd just like to say as one of your closest allies with similar views on the world, in particular in defence, I'm really pleased to be here. We have a significant shared history, especially in the armed forces, where many of our structures and policies are very similar. However, I believe that our current relationship is based on far more than this, as we share a similar outlook on the world, its security and our desires to uphold the international rules-based order. As such, I believe that we have a modern, strong and close relationship that is fit for the 21st century and the challenges that we currently face in the world. This is especially so in the defence realm where our armed forces continue to serve alongside each other in many parts of the world, including previously in Afghanistan, and now in Iraq, Ukraine, the Baltics, Romania and Mali. As partners in Five Eyes, NATO, and many other multinational bodies, including the United Nations, we frequently operate very closely together.

I think our defence relationship is demonstrated by the closeness of our leaders. Our ministers meet frequently, particularly in NATO and Five Eyes gatherings, and our officials are in almost constant conversations about the many current topics across the sphere of military capability.

Within the armed forces, the annual partnership and defence dialogue, chaired by our respective CHODs, chiefs of defence, is the overarching construct for bilateral engagements. Significantly, at the last meeting in November, personnel issues were one of three that were discussed in great detail. In addition, the heads of our respective personnel of the Five Eyes communities meet on a regular basis to discuss personnel issues, as we all face very similar challenges.

Let me now focus on the issue at hand, diversity in the armed forces. This is an issue that has been discussed frequently between our armed forces as we develop our respective policies in this area. Though the U.K. armed forces feel that we are making progress, we know that diversity must continue to be a focus for us as we move forward. I strongly believe that complacency would be seen as a retrograde step. Therefore, more precisely, defence has increasingly challenged itself to become a more diverse and inclusive organization. The need to act is primarily based on the benefits that this will bring, but as well it is based on the moral case and the legal requirements.

We recognize currently that the defence workforce is not representative of the demographic within U.K. society. To address this, we have published a defence diversity and inclusion strategy which takes us out from 2018 to 2030. This is underpinned by activity to increase the diversity of the military and civilian workforce to create a more inclusive working environment in which everyone can reach their full potential. I have a copy of the strategy, which I would be very happy to leave behind afterwards.

Additionally, our defence diversity and inclusion strategy outlines the goals that we wish to achieve, and there are three. First is to be an inclusive employer where all staff can fulfill their potential. Second is to be an organization that, at all levels, appropriately represents U.K. society. Third is to be recognized as a force for inclusion in wider society, in particular by improving our outreach to the wider communities.

Our future ambitions, we believe, will be delivered through four priority areas of activity. I'll quickly gallop through those so you can understand a little more of what lies behind those words.

First, there is what we're describing as mainstreaming diversity and inclusion in the defence operation model. This means that diversity and inclusion will be considered as an integral part of every part of the defence operating model. This includes associated decision-making processes, programs, policies and strategies, including at the most senior levels.

Examples within this sphere are such things as women in ground close combat roles. The exemption of women serving in ground close combat roles has recently been lifted in the U.K. armed forces. The decision to lift the exclusion was based on equality of opportunity and maximizing talent.

Flexible working hours is another example. Service personnel will be able to request fixed periods of part-time working or vary their deployability, if operational requirements allow it, to better fit their service career around their family life. This required a change to the law. The Armed Forces (Flexible Working) Act, which received royal assent in February 2018, went live on April 1 of this year after a written announcement in Parliament.

The final example in this area is wider eligibility for military-provided housing. On April 1 this year, eligibility for living in what we describe as SFA, service families accommodation, provided by the Ministry of Defence was widened to include all those in long-term relationships, as long as the relationship could be proved to have lasted for at least 12 months and that the individual had served for at least four years.

The second area of activity that we're looking at is mainstreaming the diversity and inclusion in our defence culture and behaviours, because we need to change the way that we are as well as what we do.

An example here is the fact that diversity and inclusion is a key priority for our ministers and senior leaders, who regularly support internal and external diversity and inclusion events such as International Women’s Day and the Women in Defence UK Awards, to name but two. Senior leaders have personal diversity and inclusion action plans, including actions such as having reverse mentors to better understand the lived experience of personnel in defence.

Also as an example, embedding inclusive behaviours into basic training and leadership training is something we are doing. Also, military personnel have a mandatory diversity and inclusion objective in their annual report. That is something we have incorporated. Also, defence is looking at introducing more regular 360-degree feedback for all senior military leaders to help make the culture more inclusive.

The third area of priority of the four is developing our diversity and inclusion policies, where necessary, to include all staff. For example, our transgender guidance and policy for personnel and, importantly, also for their line managers and significant representation at gay pride marches and Stonewall events are all important.

Additionally, guidance for line managers on how to be inclusive of particular faiths and beliefs, particularly the requirements for prayer, uniform, diet, religious festivals and ceremonies from the main faiths represented in defence are all now encouraged.

Finally, the fourth area of priority is outreach into the community, to improve how we are perceived and widen the communities we recruit from. This includes the armed forces working toward a target of 10% of recruits to come from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds by 2020. This was announced by the previous prime minister. Additionally, the department has agreed to a 15% female recruitment target by 2020.

Work to meet the recruitment targets includes better understanding and greater engagement with the communities the armed forces want to recruit from, reviewing recruitment processes and better targeting marketing and communications.

I know that in a number of areas, we are certainly behind the Canadian Armed Forces in this respect. Your targets are more challenging than ours for minorities and for female representation. Therefore, we have been doing a lot of learning as well from Canada.

This concludes my comments. I have a copy of the strategy and other documents we've issued in the Ministry of Defence. Obviously, I'm very sad not to be accompanied by other members of the Five Eyes community this afternoon. Having said that, I'm very happy to take any questions you might have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you very much, Brigadier.

I will just remind members of the 30-second warning to wind down. We did agree to an hour-long meeting. That gives us about 48 or 49 minutes before the end of this meeting. As well, I will remind members that there is a reception over at 330 Wellington. It's the NATO 70th anniversary reception. I'm sure that many members will want to attend before we head back for votes, so I'll be very disciplined on the time.

Having said that, I will yield the floor to MP Dzerowicz for the first question.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to give you a huge thanks, Brigadier Orr. Thank you for your great presentation, thank you for being here today, and thank you for sharing what you do in the U.K. We're here to learn as well.

We've been doing the study for a little while, and one question I've been asking is around how senior leaders are incented to increase diversity. I think in the second of your four priority areas, you talked about diversity in your annual appraisal meetings. At what level is that appraisal done? I'm glad to see they're actually part of the review, but what's the incentive? Is it one out of many targets? Is it one of the top four targets? Perhaps you could give me a sense of the level at which this is part of someone's appraisal and the level of importance within the appraisal system.

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Our annual appraisal system is the mechanism by which the entire career progression for individuals is based. It is a critical part of anybody's career in the armed forces if they wish for any particular career progression, whether that be another appointment or whether that be promotion and onward progression within the armed forces. I think the appraisal process is seen as absolutely critical to career advancement.

Within that, the objectives that are set out and agreed between the reporting officer and the individual at the beginning of the reporting period normally involve about eight objectives, and no more than eight objectives. Where the diversity and inclusion objective sits within those eight...because they're not done in priority order, necessarily. Those objectives are to be smart objectives in the fact that they are to meet all the criteria of smart objectives, that is, be deliverable, be measurable, and then all the other criteria.

I think from my perspective, and certainly it's the way I've addressed it and most of my contemporaries have addressed it, it has made a real difference in the way in which we report on people.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

There's a second point that I've been wondering a little bit about.

I come from a background of male-dominated professions. I've worked in the business world and the political world. One thing we've seized upon within the business community is unconscious bias. To what extent are there those types of courses within the senior leadership or middle-range leadership within the U.K. defence ministry in terms of unconscious bias? Sometimes you don't really know you're biased until you have someone telling you you're biased or showing you how you can figure out if you are biased. Is any of that prevalent? Is that part of the discussion or of what you're trying to be alert to?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

It is very much forming part of the training that goes on as part of our diversity and inclusion training. Therefore, all our advisers will certainly have unconscious bias training. Our senior leaders will have all undergone some unconscious bias training as well. I think we will all accept as well that unconscious bias is one of those issues on which you have to keep being trained; otherwise, your unconscious bias will just come back again.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Just to be clear, is that annual training, or does it happen just once throughout your career?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

It is not mandated annual training, at the moment.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Okay.

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

I think it might be one of those areas we continue to investigate in terms of the frequency of that unconscious bias training and at what levels it needs to be done. It would be great if everybody could do it, I think we'll all acknowledge, but as always, there is a resource cost there that we would need to balance with the requirement.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Does the U.K. Ministry of Defence do exit interviews of women or minorities, anybody who leaves the military, for any period of time? Are there any exit interviews that are done?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Yes, there are some exit interviews, unquestionably because retention is a battle, I think, for all our armed forces, so understanding why people are leaving the service is really important.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Is it mandatory for all of it? Is it always done or sometimes?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

I don't think it's mandatory to answer. I think it's mandatory for the Ministry of Defence to ask the people. I do not think it's mandatory, necessarily, to fill in the questionnaire.

I would need to check the actual detail of that, but that's my understanding at the moment.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

You pointed out three objectives and then went further and talked about four priority areas. What would be the one thing that you would pull out of all of what you've presented today that you are particularly proud of, that you think is really working well and is very effective and is really helping us in terms of increasing our D and I, diversity and inclusion?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

I think mainstreaming D and I within our operating model is the most significant step and the one that's had the greatest impact. That encompasses such issues as taking away the exemption on women serving in ground combat, opening up service accommodation to non-married personnel and having flexible working hours.

Those are the things through which we will really have the greatest impact on addressing diversity and inclusion issues.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Are you measuring the impacts?

In this particular area, I was curious about the flexibility for—I'm assuming it's not just women—everyone who's trying to be more active within their families, people who want to raise their families, or those who need that flexibility for anything.

How do you measure the effectiveness of that flexibility and whether or not it's actually working?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Again, I don't know the answer directly. The take-up rates will obviously be the greatest indication as to whether or not that is a good policy. Again, I can ask further questions and get back to you.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Do you have an idea of the take-up rates at the moment?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

It's only just been introduced as of the first of April, so the take-up rate at the moment is probably rather small. We'll have to leave it for at least 12 months before we do an assessment.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Of course.

I think that's it.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

MP Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Would you please tell me what your recruiting activities have been over the last 10 years and how they're going to differ now that you are going to try to provide added outreach for diversity purposes?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

I will start off by saying that this is not my area of specialty. I don't have notes on that in particular. My last appointment within the army was as the brigadier for media and communications in the army headquarters, so I'm familiar with some of it.

I don't know if it made it into the media here, but there was a period about a year ago in which we worked with our recruit advertising company. There was a major emphasis on attracting personnel from minority groupings. It took head-on the issue of faith within the armed services and the idea that people could carry out their faith, whatever their faith, and that would be absolutely acceptable within the armed forces. It caused quite a lot of controversy in the U.K. amongst the wider population with regard to why we were targeting minorities in particular. It was something that we in the Ministry of Defence, and particularly within the army, because it was army advertising, were very comfortable with.

I think there are certain areas where we are trying to force the pace within the Ministry of Defence on issues that, as a nation, we might not be as comfortable with.