National Defence Committee on April 4th, 2019

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Sorry. Do you mean if there should be sensitivities in the areas we're deploying to, as to whether we should be deploying certain people?

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

There should be a deliberate choice to deploy folks who are diversely composed, let's say, because we're going into areas where culture and ethnicity and religion and language and all those things matter.

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Certainly culture and an understanding of the region in which you're deploying are among the key considerations for deploying anywhere. Therefore, we are strong advocates of the women in peace and security initiative that is going forward. Indeed, our secretary of state made a big announcement today about a new centre of excellence for human security, which will be really important, and on which we hope in the future that Canada might be willing to join with us in some way.

Again, it is a factor in deployment, but it must be balanced against the overall requirements of that operation as well.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Do you have evidence at this point, under the trajectory, of the business benefits being there, either anecdotally or statistically? In other words, can you tell stories about better outcomes when you deploy more diverse contingents or regiments?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Yes. I think our experience will be quite similar to that of the Canadian Armed Forces, but there were many instances in Afghanistan where the female engagement teams that we deployed in a similar manner to those of the Canadian Armed Forces had real tactical success in the areas in which they were deployed in terms of engaging with the female population who previously we had really struggled to engage with in any way. That was an immediate military impact on operations.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Was that especially in the more complex, non-kinetic tasks of community relations and engagement?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Yes, definitely.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Is there a discrepancy across the branches of the British Armed Forces in terms of who does gender equality or diversity better? Is there a systematic advantage of some branches over others, or are they all more or less on par at the moment?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

I think within the army it's a bit difficult to judge at the moment, because the close ground combat roles have only just opened up to females, so I think making an assessment is difficult at the moment. We have to allow the passage of time to go on before an assessment is made.

I think if I were to compare the three services at the moment—and this is my intuition you're going to hear; I don't have statistics for this—probably the Royal Air Force is seen as the most advanced in terms of the diversity, in terms of the female-male mix.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Do I still have time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

You have 20 seconds for a question and response, if you can.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I will raise with you the prospect of maybe the Commonwealth being helpful in the question of gender diversity and equality, diversity and inclusion. Maybe there will be a round to circle back. I don't know.

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

We spent a long time trying to recruit Commonwealth—or we do recruit Commonwealth. The big question is whether they should be included in our statistics or not, because they can skew our statistics quite significantly, and really, what we want to do is to reflect U.K. social demographics as opposed to having them skewed by having lots of Commonwealth, many of whom are ethnic minorities but who don't necessarily help us to reflect U.K. society.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

Next is MP O'Toole.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Brigadier. It's good to see you here.

To start off, in Canada we call military trades military occupations, MOCs. Are all military trades in the U.K. open to all genders? Are there any restrictions? Canada was last to remove gender restrictions on submarines, for example, in the 1990s. Are there any remaining?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

There are none remaining anymore.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

When was the last one removed?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

We're in the state of lifting it within the infantry at the moment, but the policies are in place to lift it all, so it is literally groundbreaking at the moment.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Perhaps you were just a tad behind where we were when we—

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

I think unquestionably, yes.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Okay, certainly.

You used the term “appropriately represent” for gender balance or increasing female representation in uniform in comparison to the wider society. Obviously, your numbers right now are low; ours are still low. What do you think is appropriate? Is it fifty-fifty? Is it just seeing an increase each year? How are you going to judge yourself against that measure?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Our targets at the moment, as laid out by the previous prime minister, are not reflective of society but are a stepping stone on the way there. Getting 10% of recruits to come from the BAME backgrounds and 15% female by 2020 is still a struggle at the moment. We're taking it on a step-by-step basis, but eventually we want to represent society.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

You noted some particular challenges in Scotland in your remarks. Do you find that geographically within the United Kingdom there are some areas doing better than others and that you're facing geographic challenges?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

I know there have been long discussions between our recruiters and recruiters in the Canadian Armed Forces in our personnel areas to understand the dynamics of recruiting. I don't think either of us necessarily knows what the answer is at this stage. All we know is that we are really struggling to recruit within our armed forces.

From a U.K. perspective of our traditional white Anglo-Saxon young male, there aren't as many of them as there were, and we are a more diverse country; therefore, we have to open up more broadly and be inclusive if we are to achieve our recruiting numbers.