National Defence Committee on March 8th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Rioux, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning, Minister.

Minister, as you know, I represent the riding of Saint-Jean. The Minister of National Defence has asked for almost $2.2 million in funding for costs related to the construction of the Health Services Centre at the Saint-Jean garrison.

Could you describe the project to us, tell us what its total cost will be, and when you think the work will be completed?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

On that, unexpected funds from 2014-15 are being reprofiled into the current fiscal year. The funds are specifically related to preparation for the cost of the new health services facility, which I believe will be a new dental and health facility.

I don't know the exact date of when it will be completed, though. I can get back to you on that.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Fine.

Rather than the question I intended to ask you in the beginning, I am going to ask one about your mandate letter instead.

I am surprised that the supplementary estimates do not contain any funds for the Royal Military College Saint Jean, whose garrison is in this riding.

Given the new mission of the Canadian Forces, which is military assistance and supporting populations, the Royal Military College Saint-Jean is planning to offer a humanities baccalaureate. It would focus on the new needs of the army and would promote the recruitment of French Canadians into the Canadian Armed Forces. In fact, the alignment of the Canadian and Quebec school systems is something of a problem.

Do you think that funds will be earmarked in an upcoming budget for the Royal Military College Saint-Jean, more specifically for a new humanities baccalaureate?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I just wanted to let you know that when I was made aware of the project.... I think it is an important point to make if you want to make sure that when we recruit the right calibre of people we have the right institutions to train them. I think the military college plays an important role.

We are looking extensively at this project, but unfortunately I can't announce anything just yet. I want to make sure that we go through the proper analysis for this. I do recognize the importance of the role that it has played in the past and can play in the future.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you. That is very encouraging.

Now that I have talked about the riding of Saint-Jean, I am going to move to another topic.

Local projects were mentioned. The Department of National Defence is requesting authority to transfer close to $8.8 million to Shared Services Canada for the provision and installation of information technology equipment and infrastructure for the Carling Campus re-fit project.

Could you describe that project and explain in more detail how the amount will be spent?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Before I turn it over to the vice-chief to answer you with more details for this question, I just got the answer. The health centre will be finished in 2019.

[LGen Guy R. Thibault, Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With regard to our Carling Campus project and the relocation of 8,500 National Defence members in the national capital region, we are working on this in conjunction with Shared Services Canada. Shared Services Canada together with the Department of National Defence and Public Services and Procurement Canada are responsible for preparing the site.

This involves the responsibilities of Shared Services Canada regarding the installation of technology and information systems and all of the technology that will allow us to work in a very modern way. In addition, the use of mobile technology would be entirely appropriate.

All of these costs are related to the retrofit of the site for the members of our National Defence team.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have no further questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Very good.

Let's move over to you, Ms. Gallant. You have the floor for seven minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Bezan.

Almost six years ago, we had our JPSUs, our integrated personnel support centres, stand up. At the time, they were open to veterans and currently serving soldiers from all conflicts. It was a good way to ensure that the proper medical appointments were being made, but over time they've become victims of their own success, in a way, because they're overloaded.

Now we're hearing that soldiers who are in precarious positions are just left to check in, as opposed to going there and having the people in place to ensure they're still feeling that they're part of an active unit. Also, the appointment times are taking longer. That had been remedied with extra mental health care workers, but we're hearing that there are some changes going on and that the soldiers are not getting the care they currently need.

Can you tell me where in the supplementaries the monetary changes are? What exactly are these changes that are about to occur and that seem to be in conflict with the care that they initially were receiving in the past?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I believe you've raised a very important point. When it was started, I think JPSU was a great vehicle to address the challenges that our troops faced, especially when it came to the transition and the care when a unit could not provide that personal care. Even though it may not be in the supplementary estimates, I can assure you that there is a considerable amount of focus being put, not only on JPSU but on the overall context, and we've discussed the wellness of our troops in broad strokes.

For JPSU, we are adding some resources in terms of the command relationship and making it more robust, but it has to now, as we have learned.... It provided great support, but now, as we have learned from the different types of needs of the troops, JPSU also needs to evolve as well to make sure that we stay current for that.

It's going to be more, not only from a monetary sense. We need to make sure that the whole structure is in place and works well, that it fits well into the unit, and how it's also going to be transitioning into Veterans Affairs, but there is considerable focus on this, though.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

The military has started to make strides towards the issue of sexual misconduct in the military. I am hearing at the top levels, at the command level, that the job is being done. However, when we talked with the victims, they say largely that they feel like it's lip service. They were left to call a 1-800 number when something like this happened. They're not outside the chain of command for their care. They're required to see the same military doctors and they're really not getting the care that they need. If it's specialized care, mental health care, that they need, it's taking up to five months to get the very first appointment.

Is there some place in the supplementary estimates where you can point out this additional care, even though it may mean going outside the regular military medical chain?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, I want to make sure the Canadian Armed Forces is a harassment-free environment, and anybody who has been victimized in any way does need to come forward. I would say that the ruthlessness that the CDS has put to this, in making sure the chain of command is fully aware and all commanders right down to the lowest level implement this, has been passed down.

As to how it's going to be done on the ground, I would say more work needs to be done in making sure that anybody who has been victimized has confidence in the system. I don't have the exact details of how the system actually works, but I know that a lot more work needs to be done. The main priorities are making sure that we create a harassment-free environment and making sure that the victims are treated in the respectful manner that they deserve.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Very quickly, I'd give a general reminder of relevance.

Mr. Bezan, you have the floor.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to go into the supplementary estimates (C) a little bit. There are two transfers of around $331,000 to support departmental staff located at missions abroad. I'm assuming that's part of Operation Provision—

It's not? Then, what was that money for?

For Operation Provision, where is that money budgeted? We definitely had troops abroad. We had to provide force protection for those troops who were helping Citizenship and Immigration Canada in the refugee screening process. There are also the costs associated with converting summer barracks into winter barracks to winterize those barracks for the possible settlement of Syrian refugees at Valcartier, Trenton, Kingston, Borden, and others. To my understanding, those haven't even been used yet.

Where are those costs coming from? Is this coming out of ordinary operational budgets of the Canadian Armed Forces? Is it really fair to winterize barracks that weren't used?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Before I hand it over to the deputy minister to answer the detailed questions on that, when creating a project of this magnitude, the military has to have the ability to be able to respond. We wanted to make sure that we had the right lodging in place. The last thing we wanted was to create a project where we weren't ready for it.

Even though the interim lodging would have been for refugees, it also allows our troops to benefit, because we can now use the facilities that are upgraded and winterized, whether it's for courses or for training as well.

I'll let the deputy minister answer some of the more detailed questions.

[John Forster, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For the transfers of staff abroad, there are two components. Part of the transfer is to Shared Services Canada, who provide the IT support for defence and military representatives abroad. The other component is a transfer to Global Affairs Canada. When we station military or civilian staff at embassies around the world, we pay a little bit to Global Affairs for their accommodations, their computer support, and so on. Those are the amounts for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

That's it for time.

Mr. Garrison, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much. I appreciate seeing in these estimates an amount for Operation Impact for 2015-16. It's reassuring that the rest of the Canadian Forces don't have to try to find the money to support it. I'm glad to see that item here, and I know, Mr. Minister, that you're saying that in the next budget we'll see an amount for the next fiscal year.

But we're going to be voting on this mission in Parliament and we haven't had any indication of the time frame. I'm wondering—and I'm phrasing this in terms of financial planning—how long you anticipate that this mission might last. In the NDP, we've expressed our concern that this military mission is not the best way to defeat ISIS. How long, in terms of planning, is this mission going to last?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We can't put a timeline.... It would be difficult to answer that question, because it's difficult to be able to predict how the plan will work. Right now, there is obviously a military focus for this. When we review the mission for next year, even though our commitments are longer, we want to continue to review what capabilities are needed. I'm hoping that if the situation improves there will be less emphasis on the military, and then we can then put greater emphasis on capacity building from Global Affairs and on development as well. It's difficult to put a timeline to it.

We also have to be very cognizant that if we don't focus on stability in Iraq and in the region, we will pay for it in some other way. It's important for all of us to work together as coalition partners to bring stability to the region and to look at it in a wider context, but I'm hoping that the military plan will be effective so that the diplomacy and development plan can kick in. My hope is for that to happen next year—the earlier the better.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I'm going to switch to some very specific things under supplementary estimates (C) that I had hoped to see some money allocated for. We had shortfalls or cutbacks under the Conservatives in some areas that have had a big impact on the Canadian Forces.

One of those is to the Canadian reserves, which are running on average 20% to 25% below strength. My understanding is that a cut to recruiting is one of the key reasons that this happened.

The second one is that in October 2011 the Conservatives ended the practice of rolling over civilian employees who had been at DND for three years into permanent positions. As a result, we now have an increasing number of civilian employees who have been in what's called a temporary position for four, five, six, and even seven years. It's making them and their families absorb the cost of this flexibility for the Canadian Forces.

The third one is the closing of the Lester B. Pearson Canadian International Peacekeeping Training Centre, which had 20 years of world-leading work in training for peacekeeping. Your mandate letter calls for Canada to resume that international leading role. My question on this is whether there is any intention to recreate the Pearson centre or an institution like it.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'll just answer the question of the reserves and the peacekeeping centre first and then hand over the question from the civilian side to the deputy minister.

In terms of the reserves I think they play an integral role; we know this. In terms of the budget and having some pretty good experience in the reserves myself it's not the amount of money. There are challenges within the recruiting system. One of them is that when recruiting has slowed down it's difficult to start ramping back up. That is changing, so we need to be able recruit to the levels, plus we have the geographical challenges where some areas cannot recruit to certain levels, it's just difficult, but other areas are capped. We are looking at options right now of potentially allowing the reserves to grow larger in certain portions of the country while the regional challenges are dealt with within other areas. The reserves will always have a focus. I don't think there are any budgetary challenges for the reserves. The defence review will also take a look at how we're going to utilize the reserves into the future, and there are some pretty good ideas on that.

In terms of the peacekeeping centre, yes, we are looking at how we utilize it better, but also at how it fits into the wider context. The centre itself is not the only solution. How do we look at which country’s leadership to take and be able to train them while we potentially may look at capacity building as well? When we take the leadership from a different military, we're also looking at the capacity building. I'm hoping that as we look at the wider context of National Defence's role as part of peacekeeping with Global Affairs and also with the UN, we're going to look at all the capabilities, not just the peacekeeping centre and how we can make conflict prevention more effective.

[John Forster]

I'll comment quickly on the question of terms. The previous policy had been that after three years of terms the department would convert them into permanent employees. That was suspended as the department worked through its reductions. We're now reviewing that policy. We know there are a number of areas where we need to grow capacity, for example, in procurement. We're reviewing that policy and we're discussing that with the unions as well and we'll continue. We'll hopefully make a decision this year on whether we want to put it back in place or not.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

The minister has to depart. If that's still the case I would like to suspend for two minutes for the minister to depart and we can resume.

Thank you very much.