Evidence of meeting #41 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was review.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean-Pierre Plouffe  Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
J. William Galbraith  Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Yes, I read them, but I didn't see 12 recommendations on the National Defence Act, so maybe I missed them.

5:10 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

There are not 12.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

You just mentioned that you were proposing 12 changes to the National Defence Act.

5:10 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

No, I'm sorry, I don't think I said 12.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Okay, I apologize.

5:10 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

I'm saying my predecessor and I have made recommendations over the last 12 years for amendments to the National Defence Act. I'm told that those recommendations are accepted, but I'm waiting to see whether or not they will be accepted on paper. I have been told verbally that this is coming soon, but I don't have access to the memorandum to cabinet. As you all know, this is confidential. As soon as it is approved then it's part of the public domain and then everybody will know about it, including you and me.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you.

Further to that, you are the last line of defence in terms of the accountability and oversight of the organization CSE because, of course, it's a secret organization, so there's no media. There's no other opportunity. How do you measure performance in your organization in your ability to conduct that oversight?

I understand the organization is 2,000-plus people. You're eight or nine people. It's an incredibly complex organization, so, yes, you can report on the things you're touching on. How do you know what you don't know, and how are you measuring performance yourself so that Canadians know that the oversight is a comprehensive and robust oversight?

5:10 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

That question is asked all the time. How can you effectively review the CSE activities, with, let's say, 10 people, whatever, when CSE is composed of 2,000 people?

As we said previously, we proceed, with regard to a review of activities, with a risk analysis. In other words, every year we look at the situation and decide what we should do with regard to reviews. I'm advised and counselled by experts who have worked previously with CSE, with CSIS, with the public safety department, and so on and so forth. Then we decide, for the following year, what we'll do. We have a work plan and this is what we do.

Again, if we come to the conclusion that we don't have enough resources, I would ask for more. This is what we're doing for next year. We've asked for more resources, because now we feel that we need more people, more experts, to investigate, but you also have to understand that even if CSE is composed of, let's say, 2,000 people, they're not all analysts. There are all kinds of people there dealing with administrative matters, blah blah blah, so this is what I'm trying to say. I think for the time being, I feel confident that I have enough resources to do a good job.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you very much.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I know you wanted to say something but I'm going to have to pass the floor to Mr. Garrison for the last question.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to my concern about the other four “Eyes” and the sharing of activities and maybe requests that go back and forth.

I'm asking about your ability to review the co-operation with those four. I know you've said very explicitly you can't obviously review the other four, but I'm still almost obsessed with that question of the joint activities and whether you can review those joint activities, or whether those joint activities are not subject to review by you.

5:15 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

I don't necessarily review joint activities, but I'll review activities where CSE is sharing information with its Five Eyes partners. Then I'll review it because CSE is involved.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Okay.

5:15 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

This is how I discovered last year that CSE was not acting legally or lawfully. They shared what we call CII, which is Canadian identity information, with some Five Eyes partners without minimizing the information. For example, you cannot name the person. You should say a Canadian, for example. There was a problem and they didn't do it.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

On the reverse of that, do you have the ability to review when information is coming from the other four eyes?

5:15 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

If it's coming to CSE, I'll review it, no problem.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

So you can do that.

5:15 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Have you regularly reviewed the MOUs between your organizations to make sure the MOUs promote the observation of the law?

5:15 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

I'm not involved with regard to reviewing MOUs. I'm aware of the existence of MOUs. I might have access to MOUs if, when reviewing CSE activities, it becomes relevant to do it, on a need-to-know basis. As I say, I have full—

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

It would seem to me that examining those MOUs would give you insight into whether it raised questions of violating Canadian law.

5:15 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

Do you want to answer?

5:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

J. William Galbraith

We have access to the agreements between the Five Eyes. CSE has shared those with us, so we're able to see what in fact they have agreed to. Our reviews will look at whether CSE is complying with it and what assurances they are obtaining from their partners that they are complying with those long-standing agreements.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Are you able to review the long-standing agreements themselves and make recommendations to CSE if they indicate a direction that might violate Canadian law?

March 21st, 2017 / 5:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

J. William Galbraith

If there were a question raised in an agreement that the commissioner believed compromised privacy or something, he would make a point of that.