Evidence of meeting #41 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was review.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean-Pierre Plouffe  Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
J. William Galbraith  Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

J. William Galbraith

First of all—

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

There's no passing on of Canadian information amongst the Five Eyes?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

J. William Galbraith

First of all, it's not our organization, so the commissioner's office is the watchdog over the Communications Security Establishment.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Okay, so not your agency, but—

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

J. William Galbraith

We have the same—

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

—it's the people you are in charge of overseeing.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

J. William Galbraith

Right. We have the same concerns. The commissioner has the same concerns as you're expressing.

With recent changes in the United States, for example, the commissioner met with the chief of CSE last month. Is that right, Commissioner?

4:30 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

J. William Galbraith

It was to inquire whether or not any of the changes, the executive orders, in the United States will have an impact on CSE sharing with its allies. The commissioner received assurances from the chief. We have written and requested evidence from CSE that the long-standing agreements that they have amongst the signals intelligence agencies continue, and we continue to focus our reviews on the protection of Canadians' privacy in the information that is shared.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

CSE described metadata as the context but not the content of a communication. Can you explain the difference with a real-world example for the benefit of the committee?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

J. William Galbraith

What metadata could include might be a question you would want to ask CSE for the details of.

Metadata can include identity information. Not all metadata necessarily carries a privacy interest. That is what we're looking for when we're conducting a review of CSE's activities. It could involve an email address, a telephone number, an IP—internet protocol—address, and other things. Metadata has evolved over the years, and may evolve in the future. We want to make sure that CSE's collection of metadata, which can include metadata with a privacy interest, has all the safeguards applied to it as with any other information or intersection of private communications that they are allowed to do under ministerial authorizations. That's what we're focused on.

The commissioner, I believe, made reference earlier to a recommendation that he made to the Minister of National Defence that CSE be given explicit authority to collect, use, retain, and share metadata.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

As the oversight for CSE—and the CSE provides advice, guidance, and services to help ensure the protection of electronic information and of information infrastructure of importance to the Government of Canada—how confident are you in the CSE's ability to prevent an OPM-style hack, the United States Office of Personnel Management?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I'm going to hold it there and turn the floor over to Mr. Garrison.

You have the floor.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today.

You talked about amendments to your legislation, so I want to ask about that legislation because it seems to me that you are, as an office—I guess “not sufficient” is the wrong term—significantly less independent than some of the other commissioners. In terms of reporting, you report directly to the minister on an annual basis.

For me as a parliamentarian, I have some questions about how independent it is when you report—

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

I don't report to the minister, I'm very sorry.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Your annual report goes to the minister.

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

Yes. It goes through the minister because the minister, by statute, has to deposit that report before both houses, but I don't report to the minister. The only reason I deal with the Minister of National Defence is that he is the boss of CSE.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

There's no discussion of your reports with the minister before they become public.

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

No, not at all.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

There's none whatsoever.

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

There's no discussion with the minister with regard to my reports, not at all, and no discussion with CSE either. Otherwise, I wouldn't be independent.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

That was my question.

The legislation then requires that those reports simply pass through the minister's office in being deposited in Parliament. They don't—

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

The public annual report is what I'm talking about.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

This is the public annual reports, but you also do other reports from time to time that go only to the minister.

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner

Jean-Pierre Plouffe

Indeed. For example, I think last year we had—what?—seven classified reports sent to the minister. Let's say we review some CSE activities in depth and then we make recommendations to the minister in a classified report. This is sent to the minister only, and naturally a copy goes to CSE.