National Defence Committee on June 20th, 2017

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Pardon me, but I know we're on short time. It's not a plan, not a policy, if the accompanying money isn't in the budget. When are they going to stand up, realistically?

[Gen Jonathan Vance]

Ma'am, I have room to hire and pay 68,000 people. I have 66,000. I can buy 2,000 as quickly as I can. I have enough money to pay the people we need.

CSOR is not burning out. CSOR is doing just fine. I know they're in your riding, but they're my forces. They're not burning out. In fact, they're looking for jobs, they're looking for deployments, and I'm very proud of the fact that they are.

The increase to CANSOF across the board to take them up 600-plus will include investments in CSOR, but in the other capabilities in CANSOF as well. That is—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay, and they're starting training when?

[Gen Jonathan Vance]

I beg your pardon, ma'am?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

They're starting training when?

[Gen Jonathan Vance]

Well, the interesting thing is that—and maybe where your premise is a little bit off—we draw into CSOR from the existing armed forces. There's nothing stopping us from growing, save for the fact that they have to make it through the training and the selection. That command is growing at the rate that we can grow them, given the material, the people inside the armed forces who they can grow with. They don't join from the street into CSOR, so we're doing fine, ma'am.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I'm aware of that. Thank you, General. Even with the $8.5 billion removed from the budget, I'm pleased to know that somehow you're going to start giving the additional training so they can join CSOR.

Now I'm also a bit pleased to see that there is an intention to stand up a cyber unit. As we've seen with the Phoenix system nightmare, the bureaucracy doesn't know how to state the specifications for even a software solution, so how do you expect to design a training plan when the people writing the specifications for the proposal don't even have the cybersecurity expertise themselves?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm going to have the deputy minister explain that, especially the false premise you've made regarding the $8.5 billion.

Deputy Minister, do you want to clear that up?

[John Forster]

Yes, the $8.5 billion was not a cut to the defence budget. We had to clean up the balance sheet before we brought in the policy and the new money. We were simply moving money to when projects like fixed-wing SAR will arrive. Because of accrual accounting we have to put the money with when the equipment comes into use. That is the answer on that point.

On your other question on IT procurement skills, as you saw today tabled in the national security legislation, CSE will be assisting the CAF. Between the armed forces and the Communications Security Establishment, I can tell you that there are computer skills second to none anywhere in this country. In terms of cyber and what both those organizations can deliver, it is exceptional. I have no concerns whatsoever on their capability to develop cyber defence and proactive cyber operations that are world class.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

So we're going to have to wait till another government comes into place for the delivery of the equipment. But why not utilize the people who have the warrior mindset, and in some instances the security clearances, who are almost medically releasing, but who could be trained with this added expertise so you don't have to release them into civil society, where they have no chance of getting an immediate job? For this cyber unit, you don't necessarily have to deploy to a theatre of war. They can be utilized right here in Canada.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Gallant, before the chief can answer that question in detail, you can't just make a statement all of sudden so that everybody thinks it's real. You have to look at the cuts that were also done in the past. I've been very non-partisan about this in terms of successive governments, but these are the cuts that we're having to deal with. This defence policy is dealing with a hollowed-out force now. We didn't have the number of people to be able to deal with this. Before making false statements like this, look at what we're trying to achieve. This money is going to fill the hole of the deficit reduction action plan, the review that was done that cut $2 billion from the budget. That's one of the reasons we're having to invest now: to fill this hole, and to be able to deal now with the type of investment we're going to be making into the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to have to hold it there. We went a little bit over the time.

I'm going to give the floor to Ms. Alleslev, and then back to you, Mr. Robillard.

Ms. Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

As a former air force officer, and one who had the privilege of being involved with the 1994 white paper, I certainly can appreciate just how much work went into this document. I'd like to commend you and everyone in the forces and the Department of National Defence who worked on it, because this is a very comprehensive and impressive document. Thank you very much.

My riding is very concerned about defence and security, and was involved in the town hall in advance of the defence policy review, and just two weeks ago we had a town hall on NATO. One of the things that came up in that town hall was a concern about our commitment to the alliance and, in particular, the Arctic. I was very excited to see on page 80 that we have committed to conducting joint exercises with Arctic allies and partners and support the strengthening of situational awareness and information-sharing in the Arctic, including with NATO.

I wondered, Minister, if you could expand on that, particularly in light of the fact that we will have our NATO parliamentarians and senator allies coming to Canada to study our Arctic in September. Could you tell us what this means in a little more detail, and also share with us why it's important to Canada as one of the five Arctic NATO members, and why it's important to NATO?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, I'll explain the outline of our government's support for multilaterals, and especially NATO. I was very proud. The chief and I both returned from Latvia just yesterday, where we attended our enhanced forward battle group initial operational capability parade. It was a clear demonstration by Canada, alongside the NATO secretary-general and the Latvian president and defence minister, of what it means when NATO nations come together and make a decision showing interoperability. As you know, NATO does provide a tremendous capability against Russian aggression. At the same time, as we look at the north and our Arctic sovereignty, we will be looking at NORAD modernization and will working with NATO as well.

Chief, do you want to add anything?

[Gen Jonathan Vance]

Thank you, Minister.

Thanks for working on the 1994 white paper. I had to implement that one. It's good that we've come full circle here.

I'll be very brief. It is increasingly difficult, because of the transnational and transregional threats we face, to separate NATO and European northern defence and NORAD and Arctic defence. I'm not saying for a minute that we're going to be militarizing the Arctic with NATO forces, but it is inconceivable to imagine a large conventional conflagration in mainland or northern Europe without there being a threat to Canadian airspace through NORAD.

All of that planning for NORAD modernization and where we will take North American defence and how that sits with our other alliance obligations to NATO is part of what this policy asks us to do.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

That's fantastic, and I'm sure that when our NATO parliamentarians come to Canada in the fall, they'll be very excited to hear more about that.

The minister mentioned, but perhaps you could give us a little more information on, our role in the expeditionary force, the enhanced forward presence in Latvia. Again, why does it matter to Canada that we're there as a NATO ally, and why is it important to NATO?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As Minister Freeland outlined in her foreign policy priorities speech, multilateralism is important. In NATO, we play a key role. We were one of the founding members. NATO allows us to send a very strong and strategic message to the Russian aggression, while at the same time allowing us to keep the dialogue open. But we can't just use words; we need to demonstrate it on the ground.

The eFP battle group is one portion that clearly demonstrates that. A political decision was made giving that direction to our militaries, doing the planning, and then showing that execution on the ground. That's what NATO is about, and we demonstrated that very well yesterday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Robillard, the floor is yours.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let's talk about our reservists, Minister Sajjan. Like other places in Quebec and across Canada, Laval was struck by terrible flooding this spring. I saw on the ground the work of our military members as part of Operation Lentus. I witnessed their exemplary sense of duty.

In return, Minister Sajjan, how will the new defence policy support our reservists?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, this is one thing I'm very excited about, in working with the chief on our plan for the reserves.

The reserves play a critical role. As we all know, they have a direct connection with our community. They literally are the base of the community. They also provide a very important, critical role, as was just demonstrated with the floods in Quebec. Approximately 800 personnel of the task force were from the reserves.

We need to make sure they're properly resourced and that we grow the size of the force to the right numbers, and that they are relevant. One of the things we're looking at is making sure they have the right training and equipment. We're also looking at the new domains. We're going to be looking at potential cyber capabilities. We have some great expertise within the reserves, and we want to utilize that. There's tremendous expertise out there. How are we going to use that expertise overseas?

General Vance has some significant plans for the reserves. Do you want to touch upon that, Chief?

[Gen Jonathan Vance]

Thanks, Minister.

I am very proud of the response by both regular and reserve forces to the floods and, in fact, any time something happens in Canada.

Very critical in the policy is achieving a posture of full-time capability through part-time service. We want to put more into the reserves when they are delivering every day for Canadians. It's not just about being ready to deliver, but being involved in operations. Cyber, as the minister mentioned, is important, and intelligence. We'll have UAVs to fly.

There's also that latent response of young, fit men and women. Their job may be on a radio, but in the dead of night they can get called out to move sandbags around. That is one of the powerful virtues of a military force that is un peu polyvalente. Not only can you use your specific skill that you've been tasked to use, but you can do other things. That is particularly important when it comes to protecting Canadians and coming to their aid.

Finally, there are some very specific things that we put in the reserves that will have a domestic consequence. Heavy and light urban search and rescue, the capacity to respond to major disasters, and major challenges with natural disasters will be embedded.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Minister Sajjan, I want to talk about recruitment. In the past, the enlistment process for the reserve force or regular force could be long and discouraging. Obviously, the last thing we want is to see good candidates discouraged by administrative delays. How will the new defence policy improve the recruitment process for our forces?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

In fact, we've already moved out on the recruitment process. Do you want to outline it?

[Gen Jonathan Vance]

Thanks, Minister.

With the reserves, we've reduced recruiting down to two parade nights. It takes less than a month. With the regular force, I've directed military personnel to bring it down to about 30 days, if at all possible.

Here is the problem, and it's not as simple a thing as just doing bureaucracy faster. We have to ensure that we do adequate screening for mental health to ensure that we don't hire someone into the armed forces who we are going to hurt further by their service in the armed forces because they have a latent condition. We have to make certain that we do the security clearances. We have to make certain that we don't run into a situation where people go into the forces too fast and are incapable of service. So it's a balance.

You are correct that it has been, in the past, too bureaucratic and slow, but we still have to stay faithful to the idea of security screening and health screening.

On the security side, we do not want to be in a position where we hire someone into the armed forces who bears any resemblance to someone who would, at some point, be disloyal to Canada and the armed forces and therefore cause problems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I will have to end it there.

Mr. Garrison, you'll get the last three minutes with the minister.