Evidence of meeting #63 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was russian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Now, going to Crimea—and I want to ask this of Mr. Grod, who is familiar with the region and with the human rights violations that are taking place right now—can you outline for the committee the treatment by the Russian government in Crimea of journalists and the indigenous people, the Tatars?
4:35 p.m.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
I'll start with the indigenous people, the Tatars. The Mejlis, which represents the Crimean Tatar people, has been outlawed in Crimea. The organization and the group that represents the indigenous peoples of Crimea have been outlawed. Their leaders have been either imprisoned or banned from entering Crimea. There has been constant repression of anyone, whether Ukrainian or others, who opposes the illegal occupation of Crimea, who demonstrates any semblance of gatherings, and there are strict laws around gatherings. Journalists have been put in jail; 40 of them are sitting in Russian prisons today. The human rights violations in Russia, not to mention even the churches.... Particularly the Ukrainian Catholic church is essentially outlawed in Crimea. There's a laundry list of human rights violations being committed in Crimea.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
There's no freedom of the press, no freedom for indigenous peoples, and no freedom of religion, you're saying.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Then, counter to the Geneva Convention, these people are moved from that territory and imprisoned and tried in Moscow, I would presume.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Mr. Westdal has commented on the expansion of NATO membership. What about the right of self-determination? He says he doesn't want to see the western flank of Russia in NATO, and already all of the Baltic states have joined NATO by their own free will. Poland is a member of NATO by its own free will. Romania is a member by its own free will. Shouldn't Ukrainians be given that same consideration to join NATO?
4:40 p.m.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
If the Ukrainian people so desire, I believe they should be given that opportunity. I believe that we are no longer living in a world of big power politics and that we should always listen to the big powers. I think we now have a much more....
I think we share the same values that the Ukrainian people do, like the right to self-determination and the right to choose your own destiny and not be told by another bigger power. Therefore, I believe, Mr. Bezan, that it's really important right now for us to support Ukraine's right to self-determination and not allow that to be trumped because a bigger power wants to control that region.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
Actually, you're right at five minutes, but we're going to have time to circle back. We have lots of time left. I'm going to wrap up the last couple of questions and then, like last time, I'll divide it up evenly among the parties.
Mr. Bezan, you will get more time; however, I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Robillard.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My three questions will be addressed in French to both Mr. Grod and Mr. Westdal.
What is the likelihood that Ukraine will be able to reform its ministry of defence by the end of 2018 and achieve full military interoperability with NATO members by 2020?
Is it likely that Ukraine could become a NATO member by 2020?
How is Russia reacting to NATO's help and contribution to the reforms in Ukraine?
4:40 p.m.
Former Canadian Ambassador to Ukraine and Russia, As an Individual
I don't think it's likely that Ukraine will join NATO. I think there are European members of NATO who will make sure that doesn't happen.
As I said, Russia is not prepared to abide Ukraine in NATO. Ukraine is not comparable, from Russia's point of view, to Poland or the Baltic states. Sebastopol and Crimea are not in Poland or the Baltic states. They are part of Ukraine. Ukraine and Russia have a shared history of a thousand years. It's chalk and cheese between Poland and the Baltic states, on the one hand, and Ukraine, on the other.
I don't think that Ukraine would be ready to join NATO, given NATO's qualifications and conditions that there not be disputes on the territory of its members. I think there are members of NATO who do understand that it's a provocation that would be counterproductive.
4:40 p.m.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
Thank you for the question.
First of all, we have to understand the value that the Baltic countries—Poland, Romania, and others—see in NATO membership. They see it as security because they are all afraid of Russia's increasing aggression.
In terms of Ukraine's readiness, they've set out a road map, and 2020 is a very aggressive road map, but they need to set aggressive road maps if they're going to accomplish things because they don't have the time. They had to essentially rebuild an army from scratch and they need ambitious objectives. That's why it's important for NATO countries to be supporting Ukraine as they become interoperable.
In terms of membership, that's really up to the Ukrainian people. There has been an increasing rise in the popularity of the idea of Ukraine joining NATO. Of course, there are lots of sensitivities and I think we have to be sensitive to the current situation in Ukraine and the conflict. Although many may want Ukraine to join NATO, the reality is that they need to, first, start by solving the conflict and ending the Russian aggression in the east.
In terms of the Russian reaction, we think we know what the Russian reaction is going to be. The question is, what are the deterrents? What are the consequences of Russia's continuing aggression in Ukraine? That's really the important question that NATO has to ask itself.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
What is the situation at the border between Ukraine and Russia? Is the border porous? If so, in what way?
4:45 p.m.
Former Canadian Ambassador to Ukraine and Russia, As an Individual
Mr. Grod has been to that frontier between Russia and Ukraine much more recently than I have, so I can't answer that question on the current status there.
To relate back to the notion of UN intervention, though, my own view is that there would need to be UN people both on that frontier and also on the line where the fighting is taking place.
4:45 p.m.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
There are 2,300 kilometres on the Russian-Ukrainian border that Ukraine does not control. It is extremely porous. The OSCE just issued a report yesterday which says the OSCE is only able to monitor two checkpoints, only a few hundred metres is what they're able to monitor of that Russian-Ukrainian border, so it is extremely porous and uncontrolled.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
That's your time. We will have time to circle back, though.
I'm going to go to Mr. Garrison for the last formal question, and then we'll go to round two.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.
As the chair likes to say, we get to circle back, so I am actually going to do that and talk to Mr. Grod a bit more about the peacekeeping proposal.
One of the things we noticed as part of our visit to Ukraine was that Canada was underfilling its commitments to OSCE in terms of providing monitors. Have you any comments at this point?
4:45 p.m.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
I was not aware that Canada is underfilling its commitments to the OSCE mission. I thought it was robust. That's one thing we should look at, but quite frankly, the OSCE mission in Ukraine is handcuffed in the sense that they don't have access to areas that they've asked for, such as the border of Russia and Ukraine. Their drones have been continuously shot down. The OSCE monitors don't even have drones, because they've been shot down by the Russian occupiers.
The OSCE mission, quite frankly, is not effective. Number one, that has to be fixed, but we need to find a different solution. Trying to fix something that isn't working is not going to help, and Russia does not want to see a full-fledged monitoring mission happening in the occupied territories.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
The vision of the peacekeeping mission that you're talking about is the one that was put forward of using peacekeepers to give the monitoring mission the ability to actually work in monitoring those Minsk agreements.
4:45 p.m.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
It's in monitoring the border. Russia's proposal is to monitor the conflict zone, not actually to create peace and stability in the occupied territories or to monitor and control the border between Russia and Ukraine, which is frankly one of the important points in the Minsk agreement, that Ukraine will have control of its border between Russia and Ukraine, which it does not have today.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Would your vision of the peacekeeping mission that Canada would seek to lead be one that would support the OSCE monitoring mission in fulfilling its mandate under the Minsk agreements?
4:45 p.m.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
There's no need for further OSCE monitoring when you have peacekeepers on the ground in Ukraine. You're essentially requiring all the forces to lay their arms down and you have a peacekeeping force that is keeping the peace and allowing those territories to rebuild themselves and rebuild the institutions that any sovereign country should have.