National Defence Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2017

[Chris Westdal]

On that question of going back on one's word and the usefulness of agreements, let me just say that from a Russian point of view, there was a promise made at the reunification of Germany that NATO would not move one inch east. That promise has been broken, with serious security implications.

To the question of where a UN mission—if there is going to be one—would be in the Donbass, whether it would be on the border between Russia and Ukraine or along the line of conflict, I should think that can be sorted out. It can be both.

It's important to note that the Russians don't object to and aren't trying to change that border between Russia and Ukraine. You remember that the rebels asked the Russians, “Please, take us in as you did Crimea,” and the Kremlin and Putin said no. Why? Because their internal interest in the geopolitical orientation of Ukraine is related to all of Ukraine. Ukraine wasn't invaded twice through the Black Sea and Crimea, so the Russians don't want to change the border between the Donbass and Russia.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

One thing I think we have learned about peace and security missions is that when women are involved in them, particularly at high levels, they have greater levels of success.

Mr. Grod, my question for you is, are you aware of programs to further encourage the involvement of women in Ukraine in all levels of government, and if so, do you see the success these are having? We became aware of the quota of 30% in local elections, but are there other things we should be looking at there?

[Paul Grod]

In terms of gender politics, when you look at the composition of today's Ukrainian government, you see many senior women in places of influence, whether it's the first deputy prime minister of Ukraine, Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, who will be reporting tomorrow to this committee and who is responsible for Euro-Atlantic integration, or the minister of health, a prominent woman—who, by the way, is Ukrainian-American—who is involved in helping reform the health care system and who is married to a Ukrainian-Canadian, Marko Suprun. The chair of the foreign affairs committee is Hanna Hopko. The deputy speaker of Ukraine's parliament is Oksana Syroyid. You have many prominent women in those places.

The military, unfortunately, still needs some work, but, in fact, I met with some of the Ukrainian officers who are training in Quebec, and among them are two women who are a part of the contingent of eight who are there. There are, then, efforts being made. There could absolutely be more, but it is an open society.

It's also important to note that it's not just the gender politics, but also ethnic politics. When you look at the composition of the leadership of the country, you note that the Prime Minister of Ukraine is a well-known Jew. There is a level of tolerance there. It is a multicultural society and is moving in that direction.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

We always take advantage of being able to circle back with our questions. Ms. Alleslev gave Mr. Westdal a chance to add on, so I'm going to give the chance to Mr. Grod.

Is there anything, now that you've heard the kind of questioning that's going on, that you would like to add to the presentation you made today?

[Paul Grod]

Thank you.

I think the simple discussion is that the Ukrainian people want to live in a society that shares values similar to Canada's. That's why the “Maidan of human dignity”, as they call it, was successful: because the people were going to stand there until they were able to have a society that they could live freely in.

The country is undergoing significant strain. It's trying to go through reforms. It is moving forward, not as quickly as we all want it to, but it is moving forward, while it's also fighting a war.

To be clear, this is war. Ukraine has been invaded by Russia and its proxies. To call it anything different is, I think, to obfuscate the truth. The reality is that Ukraine wants the right to self-determination and to live in a society that shares values similar to Canada's. That, I think, is why Canada and Canadians have been so supportive of Ukraine: they share those similar values and want to support Ukraine, maintain its territorial integrity, and not be part of a game of spheres of influence. Quite frankly, we as Canadians should be appalled by the discussion about “spheres of influence” and other countries having the right to dictate to others.

Canada, I think, is moving in the right direction, but there's more we can do. We have to think strategically and boldly and to move forward with new visions and new concepts, such as peacekeeping, because I think we can play a real, prominent role there.

To speak about partisanship, when you are supporting a country that is defending its territorial integrity and this is considered partisanship, we should be proud to be partisan, because Canada is standing up for people who want to defend their own territorial integrity and their families.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Given the time remaining, we'll have enough time to go through another five-minute round of questions. There are still a few more people who have indicated they want to speak after that, which we will have time for.

I will start off with Ms. Alleslev. You get the next five minutes.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

We've talked about what success might look like on both sides and about progress, and they're somewhat contradictory. I'd like to circle back and ask you how we should measure progress and what the performance metrics are to determine critical success factors and evaluate progress and move forward in this conflict.

This question is for both of you.

[Chris Westdal]

To take measures of progress with respect to the violence is simply to try to reduce the violence and the war going on. No one wants a frozen conflict, but a frozen conflict, as Paul Grod mentioned, is better than one that's hot and raging, as this one is now. A frozen conflict may be the best we can hope for, but I'd hope for much more than that.

In terms of the metrics by which you measure progress against corruption, I'm not sure exactly what the statistics are, but clearly there hasn't been much progress on that front. As to the way you measure economic progress, that's not hard. One can measure per capita income, one can look at the distribution of that income, one can look at the roles being played by oligarchs in the economy and in the Rada. Those are some of the metrics one would look at.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

We measure, then, violence and corruption and economic measures and oligarch influence. Thank you.

Mr. Grod.

[Paul Grod]

I think one key element is to understand that Russia wants to see Ukraine as a failed state and is doing everything internationally and internally to undermine Ukraine's viability to make it a failed state and to turn the west against Ukraine. We see this through economic pressure. We see it through strong foreign intelligence that's happening there.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

We're making investments, though. How do we know we're being successful, and how should we measure that success?

[Paul Grod]

You asked how, in terms of the conflict, we measure success there. Number one, very simply, is that you measure how many artillery shells are flying across from the occupied territories into Ukraine. You measure the number on a daily basis. The OSCE does so, and they issue a daily report. You can see where the artillery shells are coming from. Let's not say, then, that both sides have to agree. It's very clear where the artillery shells are coming from and bombing villages. That's number one: we need to see that come to an end.

We also need to see an end to human rights abuses. We should be monitoring the number of human rights abuses in the occupied territories, in Crimea, and frankly in Russia itself. We see political opponents being executed. We're seeing journalists in Crimea being basically subjected to investigation and shutdown. That's another metric: what is Russia doing in terms of being an honest citizen and not abusing human rights of its own citizens or in the occupied territories?

It's important for us to call things by their actual names and not continue to turn it into some sort of “this is a conflict”. This is not a conflict. It's a war by Russia against Ukraine.

In terms of Ukraine, I think we can see a lot of progress. You could say...and in fact the last U.S. ambassador as he was leaving Ukraine said that he had seen more reforms in the country in the last two and a half years than he had in 25 years, and that Ukraine is going in that right direction.

We don't have to monitor elections anymore—

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Now can you look at it from the reverse? Heaven forbid, we wouldn't want it to happen, but what types of indicators or metrics would indicate escalation, deterioration, or worsening of the situation? What should we be watching for to ensure that the situation isn't getting worse?

[Paul Grod]

Number one, we should be watching troop movements. The most recent Russian troop movements, with their latest military exercise called Zapad this past summer, were very troubling. The escalating number of Russian troops in Belarus on the Ukrainian border and the border with the Baltics was very troubling. We should be watching for those kinds of metrics and raising red flags right away, because we can't sit back and say that we need to engage with Russia but then allow them to amass hundreds of thousands of troops on the borders of these sovereign countries in efforts to destabilize the situation.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Westdal.

[Chris Westdal]

I'd only add that in terms of the economy, one thing to look at is whether Ukraine can win any confidence of essential foreign investors, because there's certainly investment required to make progress in the economy.

One thing to look at very closely right this week, right these days, is whether there's going to be another spasm of instability in the capital. As I said, there are protesters now gathering again on the Maidan, and the current government is very unpopular. You can imagine what this kind of political stability means for trying to raise capital for Ukraine, for trying to find investment in our market or in Europe to invest in Ukraine. It's urgently required, but that kind of political stability isn't going to help. That is one of the indicators of a problem.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I just want to point out to the committee that there were 13 Canadians who were put on that first list, who were banned from Russia. Twelve of us were parliamentarians who were very involved, from all parties, in denouncing Russia's aggression in Ukraine. I want to point out that Mr. Grod was put on the list just because he represents the Ukrainian community here in Canada. He was put on the list based on his ethnicity. That to me is deplorable, and that is exactly what Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin did.

Mr. Grod, would you agree—it's been said a number of times—that Putin is provoked by weakness? Do you agree with that statement?

[Paul Grod]

I absolutely agree with that statement. He takes advantage of there being weaknesses. The time right after the president of Ukraine, Yanukovych, fled and the parliament was looking for a democratic resolution to the prevailing vacuum, was the particular time when Vladimir Putin struck, both in Crimea and in the Donbass.

Let's also not forget, Mr. Bezan, that Russia has not declared war against Ukraine. Vladimir Putin denies to his own people that he is financing and operating a war in Ukraine, because that has the potential to be very unpopular. It is well documented by such NGOs as the Atlantic Council, Freedom House, and others that Russian soldiers who are dying in the Donbass area are not even being given proper burials, because they're trying to avoid this becoming another Afghanistan for them. There are also Russian soldiers dying in the Donbass as they've been sent to take more territory.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We keep hearing from Mr. Westdal.... You talked about this protest going on at the Maidan.

These protests are taking place right now in front of the Rada, in front of their parliament buildings. The protesters are protesting that they want to see more anti-corruption measures taken. The protests have heated up a few times. Often, however, in front of Parliament Hill here we'll have thousands of people out protesting and supporting different causes, and it doesn't mean that our democracy is falling apart or that we're a failed state. I would hope you would allow citizens.... We have youth here who are part of the Canada-Ukraine parliamentary internship program who were on the Maidan. These aren't soldiers who were carrying out a coup against Yanukovych; these are the faces of the future. They're the present in Ukraine, wanting to change and be more integrated with Europe.

You and I both grew up in the Parkland region in Manitoba. We have the saying, “you drank the Kool-Aid.” Have you spent enough time in Russia, now that you have your business interests in Russia, that you have drunk the Kool-Aid?

[Chris Westdal]

No, not at all. I don't think there have ever been demonstrations on Parliament Hill that compare with the months of demonstrations that took place prior to the last ovethrow, and I—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I was in Ukraine for parliamentary elections back in 2010 when Yanukovych won. I tell you, the thugs who were dominating the streets back then were nothing compared with what we saw on the Maidan, all the people who were brought in from—