National Defence Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2017

[Chris Westdal]

What I was saying is that nothing on our Parliament Hill has been anything like comparable to those demonstrations, not in all of our history. The point I was making was simply that in terms of economic prospects for Ukraine, this kind of political instability obviously isn't helpful.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Ukrainian leaders themselves would tell you that they have to have parliamentary and government reform. They're working towards such measures, and people are becoming frustrated and want to see it happen more quickly.

I'll say this, that whereas Yushchenko squandered the opportunity that was given to him after the Orange Revolution, Poroshenko is at least taking the steps to move forward. That's why Canada continues to support Ukraine, in the hope of seeing those democratic reforms and anti-corruption measures put in place.

I want to come back to the issue of what else we can do for Ukraine.

Mr. Grod, you mentioned that certain measures are coming to an expiration. There are things that President Poroshenko asked for, such as more RADARSAT imagery, to help with the intel sharing concerning what's happening in Donbass.

Could you elaborate further on some of the things that need to be extended sooner rather than later in the current programs that we have in place with Ukraine?

[Paul Grod]

We've had time to chat quite a bit about the defensive measures, so I won't spend too much time on that topic. I think really what we need to focus on is reforming the country.

It is making some great progress. I think we are on the cusp of really solidifying and institutionalizing these democratic initiatives we've been working on, whether for judicial reform and how to get rid of corrupt judges, whether by supporting the anti-corruption bureau, or whether by supporting decentralization and putting in further elements that will reduce or prevent some of the corrupt practices that unfortunately were inherited from the Soviet Union. Those are the kinds of things Canada can continue to do.

That's why I was very troubled, when we see that we've made such great progress....

By the way, Canada is not the largest donor to Ukraine, but is, we've been told over and over again, a leading donor, in the sense that we'll take the amount of money we have—that paltry $15 million—and will be the leader on a project, and others will follow because Canada is behind it. It's very sad to see that such a small amount, which was very effective, may completely disappear. Our big call is for our foreign policy, our defence policy, and our international development policy to be fully aligned, with all the levers being pulled to help make sure that Ukraine is a successful stay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I believe Mark Gerretsen and Yves Robillard will split some time, but I'll leave that to you.

Mark, you have the floor.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Westdal, I want to understand the comments you were making a few minutes ago about Russia's interest in not going past the conflict line in the Donbass region where they currently are.

That's correct, isn't it, that you don't think they have an interest in going any further?

[Chris Westdal]

I don't think they have an interest in changing that border. The point is that Russia has an enduring, eternal interest in the geopolitical orientation of all of Ukraine. That's my point.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

You also said, didn't you, that the primary inhabitants of the region they are currently occupying wanted them there?

[Chris Westdal]

I think Kiev lost the loyalty of a critical measure of the Crimea and the Donbass. Yes, there was an invasion—those little green men were Russian—but there was also that loss of loyalty.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Does that justify it?

[Chris Westdal]

Crimea was taken without a shot. Too many in the Donbass, and certainly in Crimea—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Does that justify it? You were the one who proposed that they should be sorting out their own problems, but how can you justify that because the people there wanted the Russians to be there, essentially, and that the Russians won't go any further, how does that justify their invading another country and occupying it, even though it's just a territory of it? It's like if Quebec suddenly said, “We want to be part of the United States.” Should the rest of us just say, “Okay, that's fine”?

I know I'm really oversimplifying with a really dumb example, but I'm just trying to understand your logic. How does that justify their actions?

[Chris Westdal]

If you want to imagine analogous situations, I think you should think back to when there was a Warsaw Pact and imagine how the United States would react were the Warsaw Pact suddenly to be in Prince Edward Island.

From a Russian point of view, this is strategic territory and always will be. When the Maidan trashed that EU-brokered agreement—those were the most fateful few hours in the history of modern Ukraine—and announced that there would be a downgrading of the Russian language and appointed well-known Russophobes to security posts and announced that it was going to join NATO, any sensate leader of the Kremlin would have reacted.

Now, you can argue that he overreacted—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'm sorry, I'm running out of time.

Don't you think it would have been the right thing to do for the Ukrainians to sort it out amongst themselves as to whether or not they should join NATO, and whether or not they should...? Let them sort out that problem themselves, rather than having another nation coming in and occupying them just because a certain part of the region was empathetic to what they were proposing.

[Chris Westdal]

It wasn't Ukraine that threw out the EU agreement. It was literally the crowd in the Maidan. Ukraine had agreed to a 10-month extension.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

That's not the way we heard it. But, anyway—

[Chris Westdal]

Read what happened on February 21 in Kiev.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

The last minute and a half has to go to Mr. Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I have 30 seconds, I think.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

My question is for Mr. Grod and Mr. Westdal.

What communications strategies has Russia used with regard to its activities in Eastern Europe and Ukraine? Have these strategies been effective? Conversely, what communications strategies has NATO used with regard to its operations in Central Europe and Eastern Europe? How could they be improved?

[Chris Westdal]

Well, information and propaganda wars are raging on both sides. When I said that this cold war we're back in is more dangerous than the last one, one of the reasons is we're now in a quite frightening age of cyberwarfare and cyber-weapons, and hearts and minds are more targets than they have ever been, and social media and information manipulation is now a part of the struggle. That game is on and we're going to have to play. The Russians are feeding as much information into the news there and elsewhere with their slant as is NATO and our side too.

I don't think that's going to stop. I think that's part of what's been called hybrid warfare. There's nothing new in information and propaganda being a part of a war effort. It's now new technology, though.

[Paul Grod]

I don't think NATO is doing enough to battle the information war. I think you were caught flat-footed because that really was not in NATO's mandate, and as a result, they're playing catch-up in a major way.

I wanted to say the important thing to remember is that we're a middle power. Canada's a middle power. Ukraine is a middle power. How would we feel if the United States didn't like our foreign policy? We decide not to support a mission of theirs or take even another route and say we're going to change our direction. We don't want to be part of a particular alliance. Does that then justify the United States invading Windsor and maybe the industrial heartland of Canada in order to extract a pound of flesh to say, “We're not going to allow Canada to choose its own foreign policy? We're going to militarily take over a region of Canada and destabilize Canada”? That's exactly what is happening in Ukraine.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

The last time that happened was the War of 1812. We won't let it happen again.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to take one quick one, because we didn't get to it today and I did hear this when I went on the trip with the committee.

If you fast forward to a place where we actually get a UN presence in that region, and it's complex to even get there, but assuming we get there, if that UN presence is put on the contact line, because nothing's changed between now and that point, I want to know, Mr. Grod, your feeling on whether or not that might inadvertently legitimize Russia's occupation of Ukrainian territory.