National Defence Committee on April 19th, 2018

[Mark Gwozdecky]

We have been exploring this concept and Minister Freeland has personally discussed it with President Poroshenko, the Prime Minister of Ukraine, the Secretary of State of the United States, and many others to determine how a peacekeeping mission could support our overarching objective. Our overarching objective is to support the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.

Our approach is to determine whether we can negotiate a peacekeeping mandate that would support those objectives. If so, we would be very much supportive of it. However, I think that there are significant question marks around whether some of the other partners that are essential would be willing to accept such a mission.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We will go on to five-minute questions now.

Go ahead, MP Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much. I would like to echo my congratulations, of course, to General Bowes and to General Meinzinger, someone who I had the privilege of serving with. I can't think of anyone more fit for the position and we're lucky to have you.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

That was a few years ago.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes. I served under you back then.

Thank you and congratulations.

Peacekeeping is part of who we are as Canadians. It's very much how we define ourselves. However, I think that peacekeeping, in the context of how Canadians see it and define it, perhaps no longer exists, but whether it does or not, it certainly has fundamentally changed.

With NATO missions and with UN peacekeeping missions, even to the extent of this one, which is a chapter VII and therefore allows for the use of armed forces, to coalitions of the willing, and to non-UN missions, the very nature of conflict or war and peace has fundamentally changed.

Could you help us explain to Canadians what that looks like in today's context, particularly in light of non-state actors? How would you characterize the different missions that the Canadian military engages in and how would you help Canadians to understand the differences between them?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

You've hit on the fundamental challenge that modern peace operations face, and I use the term “peace operations” because we're no longer peacekeeping. In these missions, there isn't a peace to keep. There is real conflict. There's instability, so we use the term “peace operations” more commonly.

What do we face? How do we explain it to Canadians? There's more complexity than we've ever seen before.

The second point is that these situations of conflict and instability have arisen from political issues, and the solutions are political, so our peace missions—

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Is that not true of war?

[Mark Gwozdecky]

The point I'm trying to make is that the peace operation is not designed to be the solution. The solution must come from the people of the state. In the case of Mali, it's the Malians who have to bring their peace process forward together. The UN mission is there to help bring stability, and to create a space where that political dialogue and diplomacy can take place.

Really, it's a political mission with military support and complexity like we've never seen before, which is why we need very well-trained people who can go into an environment like that and be supported by information that helps them understand who the players are, what their motivations are, and how best to respond to them. This is something we haven't faced before, but in the case of Mali you have a myriad of groups, not just terrorist groups, but also transnational criminal groups and tribal communities. All of these need to be understood before we can make an appropriate intervention.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Pragmatically, how would we characterize the difference? We look at the NATO mission in Latvia, which one could argue is perhaps a safer mission or a different level of risk from Mali, but Mali is a UN peace operation, whereas our enhanced forward presence in NATO is not, in terms of its characterization. How do we explain to Canadians the fundamental differences between those categories?

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

I'm just going to interject. There was a senior leader who used to describe the world in a way that I thought was quite profound. He would say that the world's on fire, trying to convey to Canadians that there's a tremendous amount of volatility, complexity, uncertainty, and ambiguity that is prevalent in many of the regions that we have interests in and that we operate in.

The one flavour that is quite unique in what we're doing today, which perhaps is distinctly different from the past and is reflected as one of our missions in our defence policy, is that of capacity building. When you look at the Ukraine; when you look at the NATO contribution we're making in Bismayah, just outside of Baghdad, training ISF in counter-IED skills; when you look at what we're doing in places like Niger, with our conventional forces, and with our special forces in Tunisia.... We're essentially working shoulder to shoulder with some of these allies to help strengthen their military forces, because we recognize, as Mr. Gwozdecky indicated, the nature of transnational effects. Crime and violent extremism spread beyond borders, so we have to build shoulders of strength around the globe, and we do that uniquely today in our capacity-building mission set.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

MP Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and my questions will be directed to General Bowes.

General, exactly how many Canadian troops will be deployed to Mali?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

Approximately 250.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

Our soldiers will be doing much of the work in helicopters. How will they be prepared against the presence of MANPADS—that is, man-portable air-defence systems?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

We haven't seen any evidence of the utilization of MANPADS in the Mali theatre since 2011, when we started tracking. Our helicopters come with an array of defensive capabilities, and when it comes to tactics, techniques, and procedures, there are rules of engagement that are not something we talk about.

There is an expert here beside me who's just chomping at the bit to jump in, I can tell. Go ahead.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

Yes, certainly.

Our approach to this mission from an aviation perspective will be very akin to the way we operated in Afghanistan. It's a very disciplined approach to how we accept missions at the front end, and then pre-execution we have a very disciplined way of considering all the potential threats, from the weather to the fatigue level of the crews to the threats you're describing. The decision-making around that will be done in a very disciplined manner.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

When was the last time Canada trained together with troops from Chad, Niger, Bangladesh, or China? They will be on the ground with those troops.

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

We're certainly training with Niger today. We have the Canadian Army running a program of instruction. We have had participation in that country, iteratively. I don't have the specifics on when we may have last trained with Chad. I would have to look into that for you.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How trustworthy are these other forces? There are reports that when the Chinese were in Sudan and came under fire, they dropped their guns and left. Are they going to be alongside our troops?

[MGen A. D. Meinzinger]

I would highlight that our contribution in Mali is an aviation task force. We'll be operating principally out of a camp in Gao that will be configured with allies such as the Germans. The Germans are being tremendously supportive. As the current nation providing the helicopters, they are essentially leaving everything they have, about 500 troops, in that camp, less their helicopter crews. Our day-to-day reality, frankly, will be inside that camp. We will not be out on the grounds with the current contributing nations.

[Mark Gwozdecky]

I could add to that if you would like.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

No, that's good.

What is the anticipated full cost of the deployment of Canadian troops to Mali?

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

The cost still has to be worked out.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The cost of the total deployment.

[LGen Stephen Bowes]

The total deployment within Mali has to fit the envelope for the government's decision on how much it wishes to support peace support operations over several years. The cost can vary based on our deployment, our sustainment, and how we get into the country. Those costs are being worked out.