Evidence of meeting #92 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was headquarters.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Major-General  Retired) Lewis MacKenzie (As an Individual
Brigadier-General  Retired) Gregory Mitchell (Special Advisor on Peacekeeping, Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association

9:25 a.m.

MGen (Ret'd) Lewis MacKenzie

That's right. Getting to value added, my interpretation is the second interpretation of it—for example, helicopters as opposed to your basic grunts like the rest of us here. When you send in value-added resources, you must guarantee that you provide them with their own security, because having some of the nations that are participating providing security for your people—no, I wouldn't accept that.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

You made the point about the Germans on base. We're replacing the Germans in Gao. There have been attacks at that base of course. They have over 560 troops there. Canada's talking about supplying only 250. We learned from the CBC this morning that El Salvador may provide aerial protection with attack helicopters for our helicopter fleet, and that the UN is also saying that we aren't sending in enough helicopters for transport, and they want to repurpose the Griffons for transport rather than as gunships.

When you look at working with El Salvador—you have Central American experience—are they a reliable partner? You talk about people being underequipped and undertrained in some cases, but El Salvadorans will provide the skills and ability to protect Canadian troops as they move around?

9:25 a.m.

MGen (Ret'd) Lewis MacKenzie

I don't have concerns about that. I don't have intimate knowledge, but based on my experience, I wouldn't have any concerns. At the same time, I want enough of our own folks around when we do these things.

I still have great faith in the leadership of the Canadian forces. They understand exactly what we're talking about here, and they are not going to get sucked in to deploying forces that aren't going to be adequately protected. I would be very disappointed were that the case, and I don't anticipate that.

Could I add one point, while I have a chance, on the value-added issue? I was a director at the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre. There was a tiny amount of money, between $200,000 and $300,000, and it was pulled back. Do you know what we were doing? We were bringing African policewomen over to Ottawa and to Cornwallis, Nova Scotia, and training these African policewomen to the extent that they went back to their countries and trained African policewomen in their countries. That whole program collapsed. I'm not playing politics. I still think the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre was not a proper name at the time. Pearson wasn't very popular with the party of the day.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

General Thompson, you have unique experience. You have done both NATO and UN. There is often a lot of talk about Bosnia. Success happened through NATO and not under the UN mission.

Can you speak to your experience as to what was more effective, and why NATO was more effective than was the UN of the day?

9:30 a.m.

MGen (Ret'd) Denis Thompson

I didn't get a chance to serve in UNPROFOR with General MacKenzie, although I was in the third battalion. I left the third battalion just as Peter Devlin joined the fray in Sarajevo. He can certainly speak to the quality of the soldiers I served with.

I arrived in Bosnia on New Year's Eve 1995-1996 at the very front end of the IFOR mission, the implementation of force in NATO. NATO turned up with 60,000 troops and swarmed into that country. How many soldiers died as a result of direct action from belligerence during NATO's mission? I can give you that number right now. It's zero, because we flooded the place. Some people died as a result of running over mines or road traffic accidents, etc. In fact, we lost a guy named Sapper Holopina during our mission, in a road traffic accident.

I was part of a British battle group. We had Challenger tanks. I had a company of 185 men with mortars, pioneers, snipers, all the bells and whistles. We had access to close air support. We had quality density from top to bottom, and that's why it worked.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

When we are deploying on UN missions, should we be going with entire battle groups? We have had witnesses here before on other studies who have said that when we deploy, we need to go with all the assets so that we are providing the density, that contribution, and a commitment.

9:30 a.m.

MGen (Ret'd) Denis Thompson

You just need to make sure the UN is going to front up with all that stuff. You can be part of, as I was, a multinational battle group, a company inside of a battle group, or you can show up with an entire battle group, or you can turn up with a brigade, or be a part of a brigade. You just need to make sure the people you deploy with are the same quality you are.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you.

Mr. Garrison.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I really do appreciate the peacekeeping service of those who are before us today. Around this table already, we've spent a lot of time focusing on the complexity and the difficulties of UN peacekeeping missions. I want to ask you a different question about successes.

The one mission I knew the most about, the UN transitional administration in East Timor, was very successful. We had the UN mission in Côte d'Ivoire, which left behind a much more stable country.

Would any of you like to talk about any of the successes you've seen in UN peacekeeping missions and why you think they were successful.

9:30 a.m.

MGen (Ret'd) Lewis MacKenzie

I'd be delighted to answer that, because I always use East Timor as an example, and Somalia. Both of those were subcontracted. The UN was up to here in the crap in East Timor until it turned to the Australians and said, “Would you please take up a leadership position, and command and control this mission,” and bang, it worked.

People forget that the American intervention in Somalia was one of the most successful interventions in the history of the UN. When the American troops arrived on the shores of Mogadishu, the media was there to greet them. That's because Aidid and Mahdi, the warlords, had buggered-off, because the Americans came in with lots of force.

When it became an election issue, and Bill Clinton withdrew the force, leaving a modest force behind, commanded by a classmate of mine from the U.S. army war college, the force commander there, the Turkish three star, asked to see me when I was there reporting for CTV. He said, “I've been left here with nothing. What the hell is going on? I can't deploy my reserve”—the American force—“without the permission of the American deputy commander who reports to me.” But in the initial stages, the American-led chapter VII intervention was unbelievable.

So, subcontract to somebody rather than trying to run the show from Manhattan, the building in downtown New York.

9:35 a.m.

MGen (Ret'd) Denis Thompson

Another example, if I may say, is Sierra Leone, just next door to Côte d'Ivoire, with the same circumstances. There was a UN mission. It failed or was failing. They were backed up by the British. The British stabilized the area, along with, unfortunately, some mercenaries, but that's another story. Then the UN came in, this time with 19,000 troops, after the situation had been stabilized, and now that country has transitioned and gone through a couple of elections.

There are a few examples of where UN missions have been successful, largely because they're properly resourced from top to bottom.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

General Mitchell.

9:35 a.m.

BGen (Ret'd) Gregory Mitchell

Ethiopia and Eritrea was touted at the time as being very successful—probably more along the lines of classic peacekeeping, the separation of two state parties. That's why, but also because of the strong leadership and the strong forces that were sent in.

I want to make one comment that ties back to Mr. Bezan's remarks and a favourite saying that I recall of General MacKenzie: “If you're going to a knife fight, take a gun.” I think that sums it up. Yes, if you're going to put boots on the ground, don't mess around with, “Oh, we're restricted to 300 or 500.” Send a battle group. Make sure the APCs, the armoured personnel carriers, go to Sarajevo. Even if you're told not to take them, take them. Do all the stuff. Even if the UN is not going to pay you, take them.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

When we've talked about peacekeeping, we're told the stories of the UN approaching Canada on repeated occasions, asking us to participate. I'm going to ask all three the same question. What's the value added that Canada brings? Why is Canada popular for these requests?

9:35 a.m.

MGen (Ret'd) Lewis MacKenzie

Certainly, it's our past reputation. We did, in fact, participate in every UN mission that anybody had ever thought of up until the end of the Cold War, and performed admirably.

We bring more than we're permitted to bring. As was mentioned, we were ordered to bring 13 APCs to Sarajevo. The brilliance of the RCR-led battle group is that it brought 83. I was just in the midst of having to pay for all the gas for the extra ones that came in when Sarajevo started to implode, and we needed them. Then the UN begged us to keep them there—that type of thing.

In my day there were three people in the peacekeeping department at the UN. They weren't answering the phone after five o'clock on weekdays.

We're a reliable force, and we provide well-trained leadership to the levels that the general is talking about.

9:35 a.m.

MGen (Ret'd) Denis Thompson

Canadian troops are largely regarded as well-trained and, therefore, properly suited to peacekeeping operations.

The second point is that we have no colonial baggage, and that's important to many of these belligerents. When we turn up some place, they'll often ask, as I was asked in Bosnia and sometimes in Egypt, “What the hell are you doing here? Why is Canada interested in this particular part of the world?” That actually plays to our favour, not having political baggage.

9:35 a.m.

BGen (Ret'd) Gregory Mitchell

I'll knock off a couple of those that I was going to mention about [Inaudible--Editor] and so forth. We have no hidden agenda. Canadians bring strong values and military values. If I could refer back to my alma mater and Ms. Alleslev's alma mater from our military college, it's truth, duty, valour. Those things sum up the military values I think that we take to peacekeeping, and they are well respected.

9:35 a.m.

MGen (Ret'd) Lewis MacKenzie

That's what makes Mali so dangerous, because we are all—not just the white Christians—seen as crusaders by both ISIS and al Qaeda. That's how they refer to the UN force no matter its colour or religion: “They're crusaders here in our country.”

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thanks very much—I've only got one minute left—I want to go back to General Mitchell's proposal for something like the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre, perhaps without the Pearson title, and the need to guarantee its longevity. You mentioned that you didn't think it would take many resources to put this back together.

Can you say a bit more about that?

9:40 a.m.

BGen (Ret'd) Gregory Mitchell

Financially, it's not a huge thing, but it does take a financial commitment over a number of years. It does take a commitment from each of the departments and it should be a multi-departmental. I believe it should be a governmental agency of some form, as opposed to a separate civilian agency. That's just a proposition. It does need input and support from National Defence, Global Affairs Canada, and the RCMP, because if it's going to be whole of government and to meet governmental needs, it needs to have those representations. We're not talking large numbers of people and huge dollars, and we would need to find a location that would help it to connect with other things that are going in.

Again, if I may, Mr. Garrison, I think perhaps you would want to push for Kingston because there's a peace support training centre there. There are the various military aspects there and a whole bunch of things going on. That would be one.

9:40 a.m.

MGen (Ret'd) Lewis MacKenzie

Certainly there's a ton of retired military, police, diplomats, civil servants who line up outside the door as soon as you start recruiting for a centre like that.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

We'll have two five-minute questions now.

I'm going to give the first one to MP Rioux.

April 24th, 2018 / 9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Rioux Liberal Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you.

That is very—

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

My mistake. I've looked down the list. I'll go to Mr. Gerretsen first.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll start off with General Mitchell perhaps. I'll pick up where we left off on the Pearson training centre.

When did that close?